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Tolkien @ UVM

Istar Indigo
Bree

Jul 19 2014, 3:33am

Post #1 of 8 (1522 views)
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Tolkien @ UVM Can't Post

Greetings TORN members.

Once again, I've asked my students to post some questions for extra-credit to the TORN message board. I've instructed them on the etiquette. I hope they will provide fun and fascinating questions.

yours, Chris


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2014, 3:57am

Post #2 of 8 (874 views)
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Good to see you and yours again! [In reply to] Can't Post

All are most welcome. Cheers!Cool

The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 19 2014, 4:52am

Post #3 of 8 (864 views)
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Excellent! We look forward to welcoming them. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jul 20 2014, 2:13am

Post #4 of 8 (865 views)
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Awesome!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Their posts often get me re-thinking, re-reading, and finding new insights.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


michelle_uvm
Registered User

Aug 7 2014, 1:24am

Post #5 of 8 (797 views)
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Creative Process [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,
I've been thinking about how The Lord of the Rings is written and I always come back to the same question:
The Hobbit is written very differently from LOTR and with, I think, a dramatically different message. At what point did Tolkien realize how powerful the Ring was? or, indeed, that he would write a sequel at all? And why?
I've heard that the book is meant to be an analogy to WWII, but Tolkien appears to deny this in his letters. Did the book actually come out in response to the war, or was it only influenced by the war?
I realize that's a lot of separate questions, but I think they all tie in, or at least, they do in my head, which shows you a little of how my thought process works.
I hope this isn't all really obvious and I've just missed something somewhere.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 7 2014, 3:29am

Post #6 of 8 (797 views)
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Welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen these UVM posts before, but I think this is the first time I've identified a student, and so welcome! I'll try to be helpful.

Well, the writing of the Legendarium (Collective word for the entire corpus written upon M-E) is very non-linear. He did not write it from the beginning to end. Tolkien began to write snatches of poetry, legends, and stories of the First and Second Ages in Beleriand, while in the trenches of WWI. The differences in the drafts and original conceptions of many of the tales and names (some contradictions were never reconciled) are marks of the constant evolution of the tales within his own mind.

Even the earliest motivations for writing them changed over time. Originally, he had hoped to write a Grand Mythology that he could present and dedicate to England, but later abandoned the notion.

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of fairy story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the large backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land now steeped in poetry. I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

-From a Letter to Milton Waldman dated 1951

It is also important to remember that these tales, legends, and languages were a private hobby for him; he had no intention of making them public. So as he endlessly tinkered with them, the thought of publication was far from mind. Of course, that changed once The Hobbit was published, and that story began to influence the entire conception we have of Middle-Earth, as a whole, today.

In writing that story, he, consciously or not, borrowed certain parts from his larger stock of created myth, and in doing so, I think he hardly thought that it would progress much further. How was he to know that the world would fall in love with Hobbits? I don't think that he ever dreamed that people would be interested in his hobby, and so, he would find that later, he was limited in telling the later tales that we know as The Lord of the Rings, and also in trying to reconcile The Silmarillion with the other two works, now that he had set out a concrete version of some of his mythology.

The problem was that this background mythology was in constant flux, and the stories themselves, and names, places, and dates within them, never reached a completed and internally cohesive form. He would have to weave his new tales around what he had already committed to print, and stick (mostly) to the version he published.

After the publication of the Hobbit, the people of England began clamouring for more stories about Hobbits, and so his publisher asked Tolkien to write 'a new hobbit book'. He originally submitted what he had ready of The Silmarillion and other short tales, but they were mostly rejected, so a new book was commissioned. His original intent was to write a sequel, but you can hardly relegate Lotr to the subservient position of a 'sequel'--it was actually something new and better. If you read the early drafts of Lotr, you will realise that it is drastically different in tone and narrative structure-- it was a true sequel. The story, as we know it, emerged over many years of writing and grew to be something greater that could not be contained within a child's tale. I don't know how or when, but at some point he began to focus on the Ring, and the tale took off.

The Lord of the Rings obviously exceeds the scope of The Hobbit, and after writing it, some modification of the original tale was needed. Reprints of The Hobbit were issued, resolving most, but not quite all, of the discrepancies. The new Hobbit story in some places varied greatly from the original. For example, Gollum, in the original tale, did give Bilbo the Ring and even showed him the way out! This fixed most of the problems with the continuity of the tale, but not all. The tone of the first book is very different, and not totally homogenous with the epic style of the latter. This difference was the first of many problems to be overcome in the quest for a perfectly cohesive whole, but there were more.

In the process of writing Lotr , Tolkien used more of his Silmarillion material, and it began to weave the web that would connect The Hobbit and Lotr, and eventually the loose body of myth that would form the basis for the Silmarillion. Using more material from the poems and stories of Beleriand and Numenor, he built his tales on a mostly formed foundation laid as long as decades before. This helped him with the basic structure of the histories, and once people began to take interest in the larger scope of Middle-Earth, they were delighted to find there was more. Over the years, Tolkien corresponded with many and answered their questions on many points of the story and Middle-Earth in general (Some of these can be found in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien), but he soon became inundated by requests, and left off replying to most.

Later he tried to get his Silmarillion published, (Perhaps to answer many questions he had been asked? ) but was unsuccessful, due a combination of factors. One issue was the state of the Silmarillion's tales themselves-- they were scattered and conflicting in many points, and committed much of the newer material that readers of Lotr and The Hobbit would miss. Unfortunately, the new tale had drawn much more from this hidden sources of the Fist and Second Age myths, and this caused problems in reconciling the collected myths to the printed story. It also created more problems by adding new elements to the Universe--he had to write more backstory to link the newer elements with the older. This is the old issue had once he had finished The Hobbit, and tried to link it with Lotr, but in this case it was an even greater undertaking, in that he would have to reorder decade old material and rewrite the work of a life time to fit within the scope defined by the published works. In the end he was unable to do so, and what we have is his son's attempt to make a cohesive whole from the many drafts and notes.

As to the charge of 'allegory', there is much to be said both for and against. If you mean that similarities to other places, events, and morals can be drawn from it, that is true. We are all affected by our experiences, and Tolkien none the less than us. If you mean to say they were meant to be drawn, I'd say no. My personal opinion is that the appellation of 'allegory' is mistakenly applied to what I would call 'applicability'. There are always lessons to be learned in life, but did those things happen solely to teach us that lesson? I'd say no. the trick is to draw a secondary meaning from the story and events to better our lives and exceed what the author had perhaps intended.


I hope I made sum sense, feel free to ask sum more questions, or correct me. If you wish, you could head over to the RR to post a new thread with questions on the books, or go to the appropriate movie forum to ask after the films. If it is general enough, it could even go on the Main board. Good luck!!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


michelle_uvm
Registered User

Aug 9 2014, 2:02am

Post #7 of 8 (824 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW! I can't believe how knowledgeable everyone on this site is! Thank you so much for responding so quickly and thoroughly. I have always been interested in the writing process, and after taking an in-depth look into his works, I was really curious about Tolkien's. Thank you, also for being so welcoming!


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 9 2014, 3:46am

Post #8 of 8 (1366 views)
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You are quite welcome. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad I was able to help (Despite my many spelling errors). I'm rather a bookish sort, so I have a head for facts and trivia on top of my passion for Tolkien.

There really is much, much more to the story of Tolkien's inspiration, original conception, writing, publication, and constant drafting and revision, but I tried to focus on the specific points you raised.

If ever you need more information on Tolkien himself, beyond what you can find by asking here (And that is a lot--I've gained most of my lore by simply hanging about the RR and listening to others.), or searching old posts, there are troves of riches within Tolkien's official biography (Written by Humphrey Carter) and his Letters. These contain much information on the writing and publication processes, as well. It is a very compelling story, in and of itself!

If you need information on the drafting and differing revisions of the texts themselves, there are no better sources than the History of Middle-Earth series, John Radtcliff's History of the Hobbit, and Reconstructing Arda. They go into meticulous detail of the writing process, however they are expensive.

If you ask around, you can get even more specific suggestions for reference material.( Some of it written by members)

Don't be afraid to join in and ask questions. The Reading Room is one of the best places to pick up lore. If you only follow the book and topical discussions, you will be amazed how much you will learn from other members' posts as they discuss the text or question posed. Most times the sources are cited, so you will know where to look for more; if not ask away!! I, and many others, just love helping other people with lore,( It gives a good excuse to re-read Tolkien :D) and often a fresh perspective on an unclear point will be the thing to spark a great discussion and re-evaluation of opinion.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

 
 

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