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When did Aragorn meet Gandalf?
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Ithilisa
Rivendell

Jul 16 2014, 4:15am

Post #26 of 39 (1047 views)
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Revisions to the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand that the revisions are incomplete, but have the changes Tolkien did draft been released? I agree, it would be interesting to see mention of Legolas' lineage on his mother's side as well.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 16 2014, 5:36am

Post #27 of 39 (1030 views)
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I can't imagine his *not* telling. [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond knew who & what Gandalf was, and Gandalf had been monitoring the other potential heirs, so he must have told him. If Estel was still a child, I can see that Gandalf may not have struck up much of a relationship with him until he grew up, hence the later date given for "meeting".








squire
Half-elven


Jul 16 2014, 11:47am

Post #28 of 39 (1033 views)
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Safe haven? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I remember, we are specifically told by Gandalf and Elrond that they are reluctant to think of even Rivendell as safe from the Enemy's spies or more likely, from traitors among the Elves.

Once we read the Silmarillion, we see why. The loss of Gondolin - the original hidden safe haven on which Rivendell is based - to Elvish treason must have been traumatic to the Eldar, and had certainly not been forgotten by the end of the Third Age.

Not that your central point isn't correct! I agree that Elrond and Gandalf trusted each other and that Estel's identity could safely have been revealed to Gandalf in Rivendell.

I wonder, though, if this kind of intensive time-line analysis, of who met whom and when they must have done so, is really how Tolkien went about his story-creation. When he notes that Aragorn encountered Gandalf as a young man during his first adventures, I have always taken that to be the final word from Tolkien as to when they first met - from the fact that the event is mentioned in those eccentrically sparse annals at all. A footnote along the lines of "(except that Gandalf had long known of the boy's existence as heir of Isildur)" seems too precise for Tolkien, whose back story is usually deliberately fuzzy unless he has been inspired to spin a new and very specific story to illustrate a point.

A good example of this is the scene where Aragorn meets Arwen in their "Tale" - there is an elaborate asterisk moment where it's carefully explained why he had never met her before, despite growing up in her father's house!



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RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 16 2014, 1:10pm

Post #29 of 39 (1038 views)
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The History of The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I understand that the revisions are incomplete, but have the changes Tolkien did draft been released? I agree, it would be interesting to see mention of Legolas' lineage on his mother's side as well.



Yes. What you want to find is John Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit. The book includes the 1960 revisions (which cover up to the encounter with the trolls) and notes (which touch briefly upon Rivendell and the company entering the Misty Mountains). As you doubtless know, Tolkien abandoned this version because he decided that it changed the tone of the book too radically.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 16 2014, 1:13pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 16 2014, 1:34pm

Post #30 of 39 (1034 views)
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A different look [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Elrond was concealing his true identity and might not have even told Gandalf aboutEstel.

I assume that Elrond WOULD have told Gandalf about Estel if Gandalf had visited Rivendell between 2931 (Aragorn’s birth) and 2951 (Aragorn’s leaving Rivendell), and had Gandalf visited between those two dates (which he did twice that we know of in 2941-2).

Remember that Cirdan read the heart and integrity of Gandalf (and who he really was) upon his (Gandalf’s) arrival at The Grey Havens, and gave him a most special and coveted gift – Narya the Ring of Fire – surely one of the most coveted possessions of the Elves. How very important would this gift be – to give one of the Three to a non-Elf.

Elrond, keeper of another of the Three Rings would certainly also been aware of the integrity of Gandalf and their friendship would have been absolute, and Elrond would have no reason to not reveal to Gandalf the existence of the young “Heir of Isildur”.

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 16 2014, 1:42pm

Post #31 of 39 (1011 views)
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Perhaps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if Lord Elrond did reveal the existance of Estel to Gandalf while the heir was still a boy in Rivendell, it seems that the two did not formally meet until after Aragorn reached adulthood.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 16 2014, 4:25pm

Post #32 of 39 (1000 views)
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Depends on what the meaning of “is” is. –B. Clinton [In reply to] Can't Post

I think an elder can “formally” meet a ten-year-old.
But, yes, their true friendship began at Aragorn’s age of 25.

Cheers
BG

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 16 2014, 4:44pm

Post #33 of 39 (985 views)
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That's fine. [In reply to] Can't Post

It isn't an issue of can, though, it is an issue of would they have met in Rivendell. Since Aragorn (as Estel) was unaware of his heritage, there is a strong possibility that Elrond never actually introduced him to Gandalf, even if he did make the Wizard aware of the boy's true identity (which is at least debatable).

Granted, a ten year-old boy in Rivendell might have been intensely curious about a group of strangers passing through that included a legendary Wizard, a group of Dwarves and a Hobbit. I can easily see Estel and Bilbo striking up a casual friendship.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 16 2014, 6:22pm

Post #34 of 39 (989 views)
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And as is often the case it seems to boil down to personal preference. [In reply to] Can't Post

You propose that Elrond would probably not introduce Gandalf to a ten-year-old Estel (preferring to keep the secret) because Estel wasn’t aware of his lineage, and that Elrond saw no reason to reveal the Heir to Gandalf.

I propose the two Ring Bearers, G & E had no secrets, and Elrond having complete and absolute faith in Gandalf, would have no reason not to introduce him to Estel, whether he was ten-years-old or two. Whether Estel was aware of his lineage is of no consequence at this age, but Elrond surely would have told Gandalf of this and Gandalf would keep this secret from Estel.


Quote
I can easily see Estel and Bilbo striking up a casual friendship.

Yes, so can I. Then Elrond would allow the introduction of Bilbo to Estel - but not Gandalf??

But, as you say, this is all supposition on both our parts; and as it is so, can we not both live with our theories, and say “Happy Trails” to one another? Smile

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 17 2014, 12:26am

Post #35 of 39 (970 views)
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Yes. However... [In reply to] Can't Post

What you seem to forget to take into account is that Elrond could reveal the truth about young Aragorn to Gandalf wiithout the Wizard and the boy actually meeting each other. The one does not require the other. That said, the details are unknown and one can speculate on several different scenarios.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 17 2014, 3:47am

Post #36 of 39 (986 views)
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Sure, agreed, and we have speculated - and it was fun - Cheers // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 22 2014, 12:34am

Post #37 of 39 (932 views)
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Knowing the Rangers mission [In reply to] Can't Post

To keep the common folk free from fear in Eriador and seen as there was not that many of the Rangers, maybe in his quieter times, Gandalf might have lend them a hand.


Ithilisa
Rivendell

Jul 22 2014, 12:58am

Post #38 of 39 (928 views)
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That's what I thought too about the Rangers. [In reply to] Can't Post

I got the impression in the history of how Aragorn and Gandalf searched for and found Gollum that Gandalf was familiar with the Rangers. As Gandalf was the wizard to actively aid the races of ME in the battle against Sauron, it would make sense that he would ally with others seeking to protect those that needed the aid in ME. I'm glad I'm not the only one to draw that conclusion.


Wilros
The Shire


Jul 24 2014, 2:47pm

Post #39 of 39 (947 views)
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Details of the LOTRO Encounter [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In which you see the first meeting of Aragorn and Gandalf in 2956. Of course the details are heavily embellished, but it is rather well portrayed. Aragorn is on a journey to Lothlorien when he meets a strange traveller on the road, whom he initially dismisses as a foolish and nosy old man, slowly coming to the realisation that it is none other than the pilgrim Elrond told him so much about. It's rather reminiscent of the infamous meeting between Luke Skywalker and Yoda in 'The Empire Strikes Back'.
Although as I said most of the details are made up, it's still a fairly accurate representation given that the game designers aim is to be as true to the novels as possible. Unfortunately I can't say I remember the name of the quest or any of the dialogue within it.


The quest is titled The House of Isildur, and follows some of the history of the Dunedain from the drowning of Arvedui to Aragorn's encounter with Gandalf. As you say, it is basically pure fan-fic, but probably as good as any. The quest goes like this:

Aragorn and Túgonn have encountered an old man on the road through the Dimrill Dale.

Aragorn says, "You are a long way from home, old man. What brings you to this road?"
The old man smiled with amusement.
Old Man says, "What you say is true. It might also be said of you, Aragorn son of Arathorn."
Aragorn says, "How do you know my name? No, hold, Túgonn. I do not believe this man is our enemy."
Old Man says, "I know a great deal about you."
Old Man says, "I know that you were fostered by Elrond of Rivendell after the death of your father."
Old Man says, "I know that he has told you something of your noble lineage."
Old Man says, "I know too that he has given you heirlooms of your house: the shards of Narsil and the Ring of Barahir."
Aragorn says, "But how do you know these things, old man?"
Old Man says, "I know because it is my business to know. I am Gandalf."
[Narrator] Yes, it was Gandalf, and if Aragorn in his youth spoke roughly, the Wizard surely forgave him.

Old Man: 'There are great things in store for Aragorn your chieftain, Túgonn, but he must arrive at them in his own time. It is the solemn duty of all the Dúnedain to protect him, for he is descended from Isildur in line unbroken, and one day he must rule in Gondor.
Gandalf smiles with amusement, peering at you from underneath his eyebrows.
'But these are mighty words, and the time is still far off. We all have work to do before that day comes, not just Aragorn, and not just -- in our small way -- the Wizards, but you as well, Túgonn. You will not travel with Aragorn on his journey into the kingdoms of the south, for he has made up his mind, but you still have your role to play. In friendship, you will carry it out and have victory, I am certain, for that is a weapon no servant of the Enemy fully understands.'

Aragorn: 'Elrond has spoken to me of Gandalf the Grey, and I am ashamed I did not recognize him at the first, Túgonn!
'Still, he has warmth, though perhaps he tries to hide it. There were many things I wanted to ask him, should we ever meet, but now I cannot think of any!
'What a chance meeting! Let us continue on to Lothlórien, and perhaps then I will remember the questions I wished to ask.'


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