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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Chapter of the Week: Flies and Spiders

DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 11 2014, 4:01pm

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Chapter of the Week: Flies and Spiders Can't Post

Welcome to a new CHOW, and one which people might have watched through their fingers. It's quite a long scene, so feel free to answer any number of the questions below, and to add your own observations and thoughts of this scene.

A Breath of Fresh Air



"In the end he poked his head above the roof of leaves ... Bilbo’s eyes were nearly blinded by the light."



1. Last week we discussed how dark and deep the aura of Mirkwood felt. I think they really captured the heavy atmosphere of Mirkwood, even the music as Bilbo climbs the trees is throbbing and pulsing. It's like a heart beat, becoming stronger as Bilbo climbs higher. When I first saw the movie, I couldn't help but feel a sense of relief for Bilbo when he finally pushes his head above the canopy - I took a deep breath with him. Did you? Was Mirkwood dark and gloomy enough to warrant Bilbo's reaction to fresh air? Could you feel the warmth on Bilbo's face, and the fresh breeze in his hair?

2. Unlike the book, Bilbo could see the Long-lake and Erebor from the top of the trees. Do you like this alternate detail? It gives Bilbo a sense of hope, something that helps to keep his wits. "We're nearly there!" he exclaims. Would it be better if he was unaware how close they were to the Lake/Erebor?

3. Butterflies! It is such an iconic scene from the book - how well do you think it was realised? What was this scene like it HFR?

4. Have you ever noticed that everything is the same colour in this part of the scene - the leaves, the clouds, Bilbo's clothes, hair and face - apart from the butterflies and a few glimpses of blue sky. Is this deliberate?

5. Any other thoughts on this particular part of the scene?

A Missing Feast of Starlight



"There was a fire in their midst and there were torches fastened to some of the trees round about; but most splendid sight of all: they were eating and drinking and laughing merrily."



1. Why do you think the production team chose not have the Elves feasting in the Forest? With Bilbo creeping in to take a closer look, would this scene have been too similar to the Troll scene in An Unexpected Journey?

2. We don't get to see the Feast of Starlight that Tauriel later mentions in the movie. It might appear in the extended edition, do you think the team will have taken inspiration from this book chapter? How do you imagine it to be?

3. Bilbo is in the tree tops when the Dwarves are taken by the spiders. How do you think it happened? Were the Dwarves dazed and confused as they where when Bilbo left them, or did they put up a fight against the spiders?

Arachnophobia!



"Something like a strong sticky string was against his left hand, and when he tried to move he found that his legs were already wrapped in the same stuff, so that when he got up he fell over."



1. What do you think of the design of the spiders? And what about their voices, including ticks and various noises? What's your least favourite thing about their execution?

2. Their nest is creepy, enclosed and suffocating. What 3 words would you use to describe this part of the scene?

3. In the book, Bilbo sings "Old fat spider spinning in a tree!" to distract the spiders away from the Dwarves. Instead, a battle ensues. Which do you prefer, and why?

4. As above, why are the Dwarves more prepared now to fight the spiders than beforehand? Why were they caught unawares?

5. What is your favourite part of the Dwarves fighting the spiders? Maybe the Dwarves pulling the spider apart by the legs, Dwalin punching one in the face, or perhaps Kili's mouth stab?

The Ring's Hold on Bilbo



"Knowing the truth about the vanishing did not lessen their opinion of Bilbo at all; for they saw that he had some wits, as well as luck and a magic ring-and all three are very useful possessions."



1. In the book, before the Dwarves are captured and taken to the Woodland realm, they now realise that Bilbo has a magic ring. What about the movies? Do our Dwarves yet realise it? If not, why not?

2. Did the Ring "decide" to slip out of Bilbo's hand, in the same way that it "decided" to leave Isildur and Gollum?

3. Do you think the creature was tempted by the Ring, or was it being inquisitive by the disturbances outside?

4. What is your opinion of this rather dramatic part of the scene? How to you interpret Bilbo's actions?

For me, I think this is a really powerful and quite disturbing scene, yet also pivotal to Bilbo's characterisation. This is the first time the audience are shown how Bilbo is already being affected by the Ring, without him even realising. Bilbo murders an unarmed and unprovoked creature. It's very powerful, and thought-provoking. Bilbo's reaction to this is almost heart-breaking. After realising what he's done, he's in shock. Combined with his slightly psychopathic "Mine!", he realises what he has done, and is almost on the verge of being sick - he's completely horrified. Why did Bilbo not show mercy on this creature, as he did with Gollum? Is Bilbo his own worst monster? Why does Bilbo show no more remorse afterwards? Bilbo has a hideous compulsion to steal (yes, perhaps worse than Lobelia!), and yet, all he wants is his quite and calm life back. Does he realise that it's the power of the Ring, or does he think it's *his* hold over the Ring?

Enter the Elves of Mirkwood



"Out leaped Wood-elves with their bows and spears and called the Dwarves to halt"



1. This is our first introduction to the Mirkwood Elves. What do you think? Is it over-the-top, or just right? What about Legolas - are you happy he appears in these movies?

2. What about the score and choreography of this part of the scene?

3. Where were the Elves during the attack? Where they watching until the Spiders were dead?

Geeky Observations - Have you ever noticed ... ?



1. There are several details from the book included in this scene: a tip of nose out of the web, "it's alive and kicking", Bilbo throwing an object to distract the spiders, the trees are oak, Bombur kicking a spider - are there any you spotted?

2. Where is Lake-town when Bilbo sees the Lake from the tree tops?

3. Bilbo grabs hold of a spiders leg as he falls.

4. How did Bilbo get to Sting so easily? Presumably, Bilbo unsheathes Sting as he is (violently) tangled up by the spider. When he awakens, it's already there ready for him to use.

5. Spiders curl up into balls when they die, as they do in real life (depending on how hard you hit them, of course).

6. The spider which stays behind for Bombur is already missing it's front left leg. How did this happen?

7. There are many dead spiders on the woodland floor where Bilbo lands. Why so many?

8. Is there anything you have noticed?

General Questions



1. What is your favourite quote from this scene?

2. Do you have a favourite shot/screencap? Why is it your favourite?

3. What is your least favourite deviation from the book, and why? And alternatively, what is your most favourite deviation from the book?

Phew! That's a lot of questions.

Smile


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jul 11 2014, 4:10pm)


Noria
Gondor

Jul 12 2014, 3:56pm

Post #2 of 14 (1385 views)
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Chapter of the Week: Flies and Spiders


1. Last week we discussed how dark and deep the aura of Mirkwood felt. I think they really captured the heavy atmosphere of Mirkwood, even the music as Bilbo climbs the trees is throbbing and pulsing. It's like a heart beat, becoming stronger as Bilbo climbs higher. When I first saw the movie, I couldn't help but feel a sense of relief for Bilbo when he finally pushes his head above the canopy - I took a deep breath with him. Did you? Was Mirkwood dark and gloomy enough to warrant Bilbo's reaction to fresh air? Could you feel the warmth on Bilbo's face, and the fresh breeze in his hair?


I agree that the film makers captured the oppressive, bewildering atmosphere of the forest and I too noticed the music pulsing like a heartbeat as Bilbo climbs the tree. It’s as if Bilbo is escaping from some huge beast that has engulfed him.



The contrast between Mirkwood just below and what Bilbo sees and feels after he pushes through the leaves into the open air is startling. I do think Mirkwood is bad enough to that Bilbo’s joy at breathing the fresh air and seeing clear light is entirely natural and it’s easy to empathize with him.




2. Unlike the book, Bilbo could see the Long-lake and Erebor from the top of the trees. Do you like this alternate detail? It gives Bilbo a sense of hope, something that helps to keep his wits."We're nearly there!" he exclaims. Would it be better if he was unaware how close they were to the Lake/Erebor?



I think the movie version works fine, because the Lost in Mirkwood part of the story is about over and because it clues the audience in to where we are and how far there is to go. It also makes Bilbo’s later plan to escape via the river make more sense since he has seen that it runs into the lake.



I agree that seeing the Mountain etc. gives Bilbo a sense of optimism. In the book he is fooled by the local topography and is quite depressed when he thinks they are still lost in the middle of the forest. It’s not as happy a moment. Also in the book Bilbo is more-or-less forced by the Dwarves to climb the tree whereas here it is his idea and he doesn’t even tell the others. Another little hero moment for Bilbo.


3. Butterflies! It is such an iconic scene from the book - how well do you think it was realised? What was this scene like it HFR?



I like the way it is realised. Bilbo’s elation, the beautiful autumn colours of the foliage, the morning light, the cloud of butterflies make it a beautiful moment, rare in this part of the film.

4. Have you ever noticed that everything is the same colour in this part of the scene - the leaves, the clouds, Bilbo's clothes, hair and face - apart from the butterflies and a few glimpses of blue sky. Is this deliberate?


I’m sure that it was deliberate and IMO the orange and blue colour scheme works well here. The warm sunlight on the autumn leaves and Bilbo’s face and hair, the earth colours of the leaves reflecting on Bilbo’s face, the pale blue sky and the flying butterflies are a stark contrast to the grey world below.


5. Any other thoughts on this particular part of the scene?

The music becomes joyous and lyrical as Bilbo emerges into the open air, his head clears and he takes in his surroundings.



I love how Bilbo’s “Hello?” to the Dwarves below morphs into that so-British “Hello!” as he sees the ominous movement through the trees. A little later, there is another of Bilbo’s “What now!” moments of annoyance when he catches his feet in the web and falls. I’m fond of those.


A Missing Feast of Starlight



1. Why do you think the production team chose not have the Elves feasting in the Forest? With Bilbo creeping in to take a closer look, would this scene have been too similar to the Troll scene in An Unexpected Journey?


I can think of several reasons. I do think it would be too similar to the Trolls and would also slow down the movie. The Dwarves don’t seem to be starving the way they are in the book so they don’t need to approach the Elves. The area in which the Elves capture the Dwarves seems to infested with spiders and their webs, so who would want to picnic in that ugly and creepy part of the forest? Finally, the way it plays out gives Legolas a heroic entrance as he kills a couple of spiders and captures Thorin.


2. We don't get to see the Feast of Starlight that Tauriel later mentions in the movie. It might appear in the extended edition, do you think the team will have taken inspiration from this book chapter? How do you imagine it to be?



I guess I imagine it as a generic feast. The Woodland Elves obviously do like a drink.


3. Bilbo is in the tree tops when the Dwarves are taken by the spiders. How do you think it happened? Were the Dwarves dazed and confused as they where when Bilbo left them, or did they put up a fight against the spiders? \


We don’t see it but I can imagine that the Dwarves, in their bemused and impaired state, were overwhelmed before they knew what was happening. Maybe they were netted from above. The spiders are just finishing wrapping and hanging up the Dwarves when Bilbo is dragged in – does this mean their capture happened quickly or not? I don’t know.


Arachnophobia!


1. What do you think of the design of the spiders? And what about their voices, including ticks and various noises? What's your least favourite thing about their execution?


I thought the execution of the spiders is really good and to me they lookand move like real spiders. I like the colour schemes on their backs in particular. The sound in this scene is really outstanding. The creepy clickings and whirrings and squishy sounds in the otherwise dead silence are horrifying. But there is something a bit comical about their faces that doesn’t work for me, though it’s a very minor point.


2. Their nest is creepy, enclosed and suffocating. What 3 words would you use to describe this part of the scene?


Claustrophobic, alien and revolting.


3. In the book, Bilbo sings "Old fat spider spinning in a tree!" to distract the spiders away from the Dwarves. Instead, a battle ensues. Which do you prefer, and why?


This scene is different from the book in execution but IMO is fundamentally the same in meaning. Bilbo is the hero who faces the spiders and uses the Ring and Sting to free the Dwarves, naming his sword in the process. Attercop works fine in the book but IMO would be more than a bit precious on the screen. Whether we like or not, it just doesn’t fit with the way this story is being told.


I enjoy the way that Bilbo looks down at the spider he has just killed and nods as if to say thanks for the suggestion. He looks pretty comfortable handing the sword.


As for the much debated part where Bilbo hears the spider speak after removing the Ring: whether it’s the residual effect of the Ring or an error doesn’t matter to me.


4. As above, why are the Dwarves more prepared now to fight the spiders than beforehand? Why were they caught unawares?


We don’t know exactly how the Dwarves are caught at first but back then they seem out of it and more interested in quarreling amongst themselves than in their situation. Maybe they didn’t know what was happening until it was too late. Later, they know what they were facing and possibly the adrenaline rush of the escape helped to clear their heads.


5. What is your favourite part of the Dwarves fighting the spiders? Maybe the Dwarves pulling the spider apart by the legs, Dwalin punching one in the face, or perhaps Kili's mouth stab?


My favourite part is Dwalin punching the spider right in the face, because that is so like him. Though they are disgusting, I don’t mind the spiders at all. But the moment when the Dwarves pull the legs off the spider attacking Bombur makes my stomach heave every time, even as I appreciate how the Dwarves work together.


The Ring's Hold on Bilbo

1. In the book, before the Dwarves are captured and taken to the Woodland realm, they now realise that Bilbo has a magic ring. What about the movies? Do our Dwarves yet realise it? If not, why not?


We haven’t seen any indication that Bilbo has told anybody about the Ring and in fact in a previous scene we see him try and fail to tell Gandalf. I can’t recall him using it yet where anyone else could see. If that is so, it may be that a later plot point depends upon it.


2. Did the Ring "decide" to slip out of Bilbo's hand, in the same way that it "decided" to leave Isildur and Gollum?


I see the similarity too. It could be deliberate on the Ring’s part but the fight with the spider and falling out of a tree yet again is also enough to make anyone drop it. Would the Ring give up on Bilbo so soon?


3. Do you think the creature was tempted by the Ring, or was it being inquisitive by the disturbances outside?

To my eyes the creature doesn’t show any interest in the Ring and in fact knocks it aside in passing.


4. What is your opinion of this rather dramatic part of the scene? How to you interpret Bilbo's actions?


For me, I think this is a really powerful and quite disturbing scene, yet also pivotal to Bilbo's characterisation. This is the first time the audience are shown how Bilbo is already being affected by the Ring, without him even realising. Bilbo murders an unarmed and unprovoked creature. It's very powerful, and thought-provoking. Bilbo's reaction to this is almost heart-breaking. After realising what he's done, he's in shock. Combined with his slightly psychopathic"Mine!", he realises what he has done, and is almost on the verge of being sick - he's completely horrified. Why did Bilbo not show mercy on this creature, as he did with Gollum? Is Bilbo his own worst monster? Why does Bilbo show no more remorse afterwards? Bilbo has a hideous compulsion to steal (yes, perhaps worse than Lobelia!), and yet, all he wants is his quite and calm life back. Does he realise that it's the power of the Ring, or does he think it's *his* hold over the Ring?


I agree that the whole scene is very powerful and disturbing, very well done. We see the power the Ring already exerts on this very good person. I wonder if its effects were temporarily enhanced by the violence of the recent fight with the spiders.


Martin Freeman masterfully runs through a huge range of emotions in seconds: fear, anxiety and loss, berserker rage, gloating satisfaction, unease and then revulsion. We can see in Freeman’s face the horrified realisation of what Bilbo felt and did as he looks at the Ring and struggles not to heave. I think that Bilbo’s reaction after the fact is in part due to the strength of the alien emotions that he has just experienced and what he did because of them. But he had also just been killing spiders without compunction and this probably seemed like just one more monster, unlike Gollum who was a sentient (if evil) being. Also, when he chose not to kill Gollum, Bilbo had only possessed the Ring for minutes.


Despite his horror at its effect on him, it doesn’t look to me that Bilbo gets that he’s feeling the power of the Ring. His revulsion seems more personal and internal.


Aside: we hear a lovely, poignant yet ominous version of the Ring theme at this point.

Enter the Elves of Mirkwood


1. This is our first introduction to the Mirkwood Elves. What do you think? Is it over-the-top, or just right? What about Legolas - are you happy he appears in these movies?


Legolas arrives via a spider strand, which I guess are not sticky to Elves, sliding on top of a spider and then under another as he guts it. It’s so over-the top-but I enjoy it. It’s fun. After all, Legolas is of a people who can walk on snow and use a tightrope as a bridge to cross a river. Tauriel‘s arrival is a little less extreme as she effortlessly kills four spiders and saves Kili. But some of this sequence looks a little fake even to my uncritical eye.


IMO Legolas should be in the movie, since the Woodland Realm is his home and he is the King’s son. I’ve never been a special fan of Legolas but I’m happy that instead of just a cameo, the film makers elected to give him a character arc and a role in the larger story.


2. What about the score and choreography of this part of the scene?


Like all the action in both trilogies, it seems to me that Legolas’ and Tauriel’s stunts are well choreographed and executed, if rather too extreme. I particularly liked Tauriel’s moves – she very gracefully kills four spiders in seconds while she chats with Kili.


Here we have the introduction of Tauriel’s action theme, which we also hear used to good effect in The Forest River and Beyond the Forest tracks.


3. Where were the Elves during the attack? Where they watching until the Spiders were dead?

I had assumed that the Elves had just arrived since Legolas and Tauriel showed no reluctance to engage the spiders.


Geeky Observations - Have you ever noticed ... ?






1. There are several details from the book included in this scene: a tip of nose out of the web, "it's alive and kicking", Bilbo throwing an object to distract the spiders, the trees are oak, Bombur kicking a spider - are there any you spotted?


Yes I noticed all that except for the trees. PJ does pay attention to the books more than he’s given credit for.


2. Where is Lake-town when Bilbo sees the Lake from the tree tops?


Possibly behind some trees or around a bend in the shoreline? Maybe it deliberately excluded to be kept as a surprise a little later.


3. Bilbo grabs hold of a spiders leg as he falls.


Thanks for pointing that out, it’s fabulous.


4. How did Bilbo get to Sting so easily? Presumably, Bilbo unsheathes Sting as he is (violently) tangled up by the spider. When he awakens, it's already there ready for him to use.


Sounds good to me.

5. Spiders curl up into balls when they die, as they do in real life (depending on how hard you hit them, of course).


That is one of the most horrifying things about these spiders, for me.


6. The spider which stays behind for Bombur is already missing it's front left leg. How did this happen?


I missed that too, thanks. I’d guess that’s the reason or excuse why it didn’t leave with the other spiders. The Dwarves did it maybe, or the Elves in an earlier battle?


7. There are many dead spiders on the woodland floor where Bilbo lands. Why so many?

Bilbo has killed three by then. Maybe the Dwarves killed some or maybe they are the dead from previous Elf attacks. Or maybe they kill each other.


General Questions



1. What is your favourite quote from this scene?


There is not much dialogue in this sequence but here are a couple of my favourites:


“Their hide is tough but there’s good juice inside.” Yes, that’s the Dwarves all over.


and


“Sting. That’s a good name” as Bilbo nods in acknowledgement to the spider he has just killed.



2. Do you have a favourite shot/screencap? Why is it your favourite?




I love this shot of Bilbo climbing the tree as the camera pulls back through the webs and we see the tiny Hobbit scaling the huge tree as if through a veil. He looks like a tiny insect about to be caught in the web.


3. What is your least favourite deviation from the book, and why? And alternatively, what is your most favourite deviation from the book?

I have fewer problems with deviations from the book in The Hobbit movies than I did with LotR, maybe because I am less fond of the book than I am of LotR. I love the basic story and the characters but the more child oriented bits irk me a little Overall, I prefer this enhanced Hobbit to a straight rendition of the book. So, in this sequence at least, there is nothing that I dislike in comparison to the book.


Thanks Daniel - this was a marathon but worth it.


(This post was edited by Noria on Jul 12 2014, 4:03pm)


zalmoxis
Bree

Jul 12 2014, 8:47pm

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accept my apologies for commenting on "A Breath of Fresh Air" only, due to lack of time.

1. This was a scene that I had been looking forward to - but I felt deep disappointment! The climbing was good and captured the atmosphere, but as soon as he raised his head above the roof of leaves, I could hardly believe that the filmmakers had managed to destroy even this small, though iconic scene.

2. The fact that Bilbo could see the Lake and Erebor from the treetop is just another example of how Middle-earth was diminished within these movies, but that didn't come as a big surprise. Actually, I didn't pay much attention to this accomplished fact anymore.

3. "Butterflies"- IMO this iconic scene was ruined by the choice of colours, and thus realized badly.

4. In the book there is a very clear and impressive description: "a sea of dark green...", and butterflies "a dark dark velvety black". In the movie it is all the usual teal & orange. I dislike this look, especially in this scene.


(This post was edited by zalmoxis on Jul 12 2014, 8:52pm)


Retro315
Rivendell

Jul 13 2014, 3:26am

Post #4 of 14 (1340 views)
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Flies and Spiders [In reply to] Can't Post

This whole sequence was highly effective for me, even trouncing the arachnophobic content of the Shelob chapter of ROTK. As it happens, smaller, quicker spiders moving in three dimensions and with webs freak me out worse than one massive, grotesque spider in a sandy hole in the volcanic crags.

So I won't get too into it - I felt it was a great translation from book to film that didn't excise too much, but told an efficient, tense story, covered all the main beats and even a few of the really minor ones (like dwarf noses and fat Bombur). I thought the Ring translation was ingenious.

I would like to talk about the part where Bilbo drops his ring, fiercely gets it back from that Mirkwood forest-floor bug and proclaims "Mine". This is another example, like his musing in Beorn's house, that is different contextually. As part of a prequel, where we've already seen LOTR, it's so on the nose that it's either unsubtle and hammer-fisted, or else pure fan-service. But in the context of a novice watching all six of these films in chronological order, beginning with The Hobbit ... it's really not.

We haven't yet glimpsed the double-edged sword of "Greed" in the form of Thorin's dragon sickness. Greed itself has not been decried as "BAD", thematically. The whole quest, after all, is for one fourteenth of a massive treasure. So the seen reaffirms that Bilbo doesn't want to lose this precious bauble, this helpful talisman. It's helped him overcome danger, it's very handy, if he ever has any hope of burgling a dragon, he's going to need it and he, and We (the audience who haven't seen LOTR yet) know that he's going to want that thing.

In that way, the "Mine" callback to Gollum plays as cute and we don't quite understand the nefariousness, the insidiousness of that phrase, even if the ring-theme music is consciously informing us of the insidiousness. We the newbies, watching Hobbit first, are like "YEAH, you go Bilbo!" and we can understand him recoiling in disgust but it's tempered - we don't notice it as poignantly. We think he's recoiling because he just performed a challenging feat, killing that bug, and needs a breather while he collects his wits and switches back from "instinct" to "practicality".

And it has an immediate payoff, as he uses it to creep on Legolas, and obviously to infiltrate Thranduil's halls and rescue the dwarves. And further payoff comes when he plunders Smaug's hoard and evades the deadliest creature on Middle-earth.

Contextually, this is Jackson having his cake and eating it, too. For the novice it actually tracks very, very well and shows us plenty about Bilbo and the practicality and helpfulness of the Ring. For the experienced, or (and it would be so cool if I could turn back time and be one of these people) the person who gets to watch LOTR and think about Hobbit in hindsight ... it gets to blow their minds as they go back and realize there it is, all telegraphed in Bilbo, in Freeman's nuanced performance.

But it's pretty hard for us LOTR veterans to see that aspect of it, so steeped are we in the insidiousness of the ring, and untrusting of deus ex machina trinkets in general.


Kim
Valinor


Jul 13 2014, 6:02pm

Post #5 of 14 (1325 views)
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First, I just have to say that normally I re-watch the chapter when I’m writing up my CHOW responses, pausing and re-winding to look at certain scenes and respond to questions. Yeah, that’s not gonna happen with this one. To this day, I still can’t watch the Shelob scene with Sam unless it’s through my fingers, and this one comes in a close second. So, responses are based off memory, and in some cases, partially viewed images.

A Breath of Fresh Air
1. Last week we discussed how dark and deep the aura of Mirkwood felt. I think they really captured the heavy atmosphere of Mirkwood, even the music as Bilbo climbs the trees is throbbing and pulsing. It's like a heart beat, becoming stronger as Bilbo climbs higher. When I first saw the movie, I couldn't help but feel a sense of relief for Bilbo when he finally pushes his head above the canopy - I took a deep breath with him. Did you? Was Mirkwood dark and gloomy enough to warrant Bilbo's reaction to fresh air? Could you feel the warmth on Bilbo's face, and the fresh breeze in his hair?
I think the way Mirkwood was characterized, with the spores and disorientation of the dwarves, did do enough to warrant Bilbo’s reaction. I did feel relief for him finally getting out of that oppressive atmosphere and into the fresh air.

2. Unlike the book, Bilbo could see the Long-lake and Erebor from the top of the trees. Do you like this alternate detail? It gives Bilbo a sense of hope, something that helps to keep his wits. "We're nearly there!" he exclaims. Would it be better if he was unaware how close they were to the Lake/Erebor?
I liked how he could see them and that it could give him hope.

3. Butterflies! It is such an iconic scene from the book - how well do you think it was realised? What was this scene like it HFR?
This was a great shot as more and more butterflies filled the screen, my face just lit up with a smile like Bilbo’s. Pretty incredible in HFR.


4. Have you ever noticed that everything is the same colour in this part of the scene - the leaves, the clouds, Bilbo's clothes, hair and face - apart from the butterflies and a few glimpses of blue sky. Is this deliberate?
It does seem to be deliberate, which makes me wonder if they were thinking that far ahead when they picked the color for Bilbo’s jacket. And certainly gave it a nice autumnal feel.

5. Any other thoughts on this particular part of the scene?
I love the shot of the lake as Bilbo sees it (the one you have below under Geeky Obs) – one of the most beautiful of the movie.

A Missing Feast of Starlight
1. Why do you think the production team chose not have the Elves feasting in the Forest? With Bilbo creeping in to take a closer look, would this scene have been too similar to the Troll scene in An Unexpected Journey?
I have to admit, this part of the book always confused me – were the elves deliberately teasing the dwarves and trying to lure them off the path? It just always seemed a little odd to me as I didn’t quite see the point of what the elves were doing, then claiming that the dwarves were attacking them, so I was ok with not having it in the movie. And I could see similarities with the troll scene, so that could be another reason not to include it.

2. We don't get to see the Feast of Starlight that Tauriel later mentions in the movie. It might appear in the extended edition, do you think the team will have taken inspiration from this book chapter? How do you imagine it to be?
It would be nice to see the feast in the EE, both to see more of the Woodland Realm and also to see more of the elves beyond the warriors/jailors.

3. Bilbo is in the tree tops when the Dwarves are taken by the spiders. How do you think it happened? Were the Dwarves dazed and confused as they where when Bilbo left them, or did they put up a fight against the spiders?
First, when Bilbo sees the tree branches moving and breaking as something approaches, it was a nicely ominous touch that makes us think something is coming, but even creepier to think it’s already there and right underneath him. I have a slight fear of being in the ocean and not knowing what could be underneath me in the murky water, and I got that same feeling here. I didn’t want Bilbo to duck down under the canopy and see what was coming. To answer your question, it does seem like the spiders came after the dwarves almost as soon as Bilbo climbed up, and I’m not sure the dwarves could have put up much of a fight considering the state they were in.

Arachnophobia!
1. What do you think of the design of the spiders? And what about their voices, including ticks and various noises? What's your least favourite thing about their execution?
Since I have a fear of spiders, I haven’t paid too close attention to their design, so I’ll just say they seemed fine to me as far as giant spiders go. I did think the ticks/noises/voices were effective. Least favorite thing: giant spiders!

2. Their nest is creepy, enclosed and suffocating. What 3 words would you use to describe this part of the scene?
Sorry, can’t, hiding.

3. In the book, Bilbo sings "Old fat spider spinning in a tree!" to distract the spiders away from the Dwarves. Instead, a battle ensues. Which do you prefer, and why?
Again, that part of the book came across as a little odd to me, a little too lighthearted to fit with being attacked by giant spiders, especially the insults. Although, using words instead of weapons does seem to fit Book!Bilbo better.


4. As above, why are the Dwarves more prepared now to fight the spiders than beforehand? Why were they caught unawares?
Spider sneak attack (shudder).

5. What is your favourite part of the Dwarves fighting the spiders? Maybe the Dwarves pulling the spider apart by the legs, Dwalin punching one in the face, or perhaps Kili's mouth stab?
Kind of hard to have a favorite part of a scene I have to watch through my fingers. I’ll have to go with twirling Thorin. Even fighting giant spiders, he’s quite stylish.

The Ring's Hold on Bilbo
1. In the book, before the Dwarves are captured and taken to the Woodland realm, they now realise that Bilbo has a magic ring. What about the movies? Do our Dwarves yet realise it? If not, why not?
I actually thought they might when Bilbo pulled the ring off and said “here”, but I think they were still in the cobwebs at that point, so couldn’t really see him re-appear.

2. Did the Ring "decide" to slip out of Bilbo's hand, in the same way that it "decided" to leave Isildur and Gollum?
Hmmm, that’s quite possible, maybe now that’s it’s out in the open and surrounded by evil creatures?

3. Do you think the creature was tempted by the Ring, or was it being inquisitive by the disturbances outside?
I’m not sure, I was too distracted wondering what in the heck that thing was!


4. What is your opinion of this rather dramatic part of the scene? How to you interpret Bilbo's actions?
I quite agree with what you said, it was very disturbing to see how he reacted to the creature, although part of that could be chalked up to an adrenaline high of fighting the other spiders and just getting carried away in the moment. At the end, I do think he’s realizing that there’s something more to this ring that might not be good for him.

Enter the Elves of Mirkwood
1. This is our first introduction to the Mirkwood Elves. What do you think? Is it over-the-top, or just right? What about Legolas - are you happy he appears in these movies?
Perhaps a little over the top, swinging on cobwebs and such, but not too bad. I was still so focused on avoiding watching the spiders, but I was really interested to see Tauriel’s entrance. And yes, I’m fine with Legolas appearing in these movies – it makes perfect sense that he would be there.

2. What about the score and choreography of this part of the scene?
Love Tauriel’s theme – I think it was the first new theme that caught my attention in DOS. The choreography was really fast and fluid, but I haven’t examined it closely because, you know, giant spiders.

3. Where were the Elves during the attack? Where they watching until the Spiders were dead?
I assumed they just got there, possibly chasing after spiders in another part of the forest that led them to the dwarves.

Geeky Observations - Have you ever noticed ... ?
1. There are several details from the book included in this scene: a tip of nose out of the web, "it's alive and kicking", Bilbo throwing an object to distract the spiders, the trees are oak, Bombur kicking a spider - are there any you spotted?
Well, much like watching giant spiders, reading about them is not my favorite thing, so I’ll admit I didn’t retain a lot of the details of this part of the book, other than attercop and tomnoddy (and wondering why those are such insults).

2. Where is Lake-town when Bilbo sees the Lake from the tree tops?
Um, just behind some trees?

3. Bilbo grabs hold of a spiders leg as he falls.
Did not notice that, thanks, now I will (ick).

4. How did Bilbo get to Sting so easily? Presumably, Bilbo unsheathes Sting as he is (violently) tangled up by the spider. When he awakens, it's already there ready for him to use.

Yeah, I was wondering about this too – seemed a little too handy compared to the way he was wrapped up.

5. Spiders curl up into balls when they die, as they do in real life (depending on how hard you hit them, of course).

6. The spider which stays behind for Bombur is already missing it's front left leg. How did this happen?

7. There are many dead spiders on the woodland floor where Bilbo lands. Why so many?

Favorite hunting ground of the elves?

8. Is there anything you have noticed?
No, sorry, hiding. Oh wait, actually yes, there is. Where are the flies?

General Questions
1. What is your favourite quote from this scene?
Guess I’ll go with the obvious, “Sting. That’s a good name.”

2. Do you have a favourite shot/screencap? Why is it your favourite?
As I mentioned above, the shot of the lake from the tree tops – just such a beautiful shot.

3. What is your least favourite deviation from the book, and why? And alternatively, what is your most favourite deviation from the book?

Phew! That's a lot of questions.

It certainly is! Thanks for the thorough post Daniel. Too bad it had to be about giant spiders!

Thorin’s hair: who knew cobwebs in long dark hair could be such a volumizing hair care product? Quite attractive I must say. Wink



"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying


“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."


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Noria
Gondor

Jul 13 2014, 8:09pm

Post #6 of 14 (1309 views)
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Winner of the Best Answer award is Kim [In reply to] Can't Post

2. Their nest is creepy, enclosed and suffocating. What 3 words would you use to describe this part of the scene?

Sorry, can’t, hiding


ROTFL


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 14 2014, 1:27pm

Post #7 of 14 (1289 views)
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Absent Flies and Pesky Spiders [In reply to] Can't Post

Bunch of quick replies
  • A breath of fresh air: Loved how this was realised. Good point on the themetic colour. Certainly got the "autumn is here!" message
  • A Missing Feast of Starlight: I'm hoping to see this in the EE for sure. But looking at how the plot develops, it will probably not be interwoven with the Dwarves' crashing through the Forest like in the book, but rather an event to preface Tauriel's conversation with Kili. So I want the production to surprise me Smile
  • Arachnophobia!: As a nature-program nerd: Loved the spiders! As someone who's had the conventional dose of "spiders and critters are creepiecrawlies get them away from me girlie eew" indoctrination growing up, I would just continue to admire them remotely, thank you. 3 words: Very Spidery Nestly. The Dwarves acquitted themselves well.
  • The Ring's Hold on Bilbo: Seems like the Dwarves were in the dark about Bilbo's ring. I think the Ring might have started flexing its will and putting out feelers for upgrade possibilities - after all that time with only Gollum it must feel like liberation to be out and about, probably detecting the presence of "greater" minds like the Elves and maybe Thranduil? The poor pseudo-arachnid was probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think the drama was well-balanced. The Ring was no trifle, and again, I think it's partly in resonance to the presence of "greater minds", plus there's the option of hitching a ride from the Spiders if the Elves didn't pan out, that it's exerting its will a bit more strongly. Some may think it too soon, but I feel it's about right. And I got the significance of Bilbo's ferocity and subsequent horrified realisation - my non-book nerd sister provided the sanity check that yes, we both got the same message. Anyway, nice observations about Bilbo out of this scene, DanielB, and interesting questions to ponder.
  • Enter the Elves of Mirkwood: Grand entrance, especially Legolas. It makes sense for him to be in the movies of course but yeah, the theatrics was a bit much. They were en-route to the nest and probably hurried up when they realised there was a scuffle. They might not love Dwarves, but just watching the Spiders do their thing would be too low.
  • Geeky Observations - Have you ever noticed ... ?: Q6 - previous encounter with unwilling victim or escapee from a previous Elf-raid. Q7 - May not be dead spider per se but the shedded exoskeletons since spiders molt, like scorpions and lobsters.
  • General Questions: Just loved the Bilbo characterisation, and yeah, the cooperative fighting style and battle-rapport of the Dwarves. Also, not much flies eh? Would have liked Bilbo to have his hero-moment like the book but well, gotta cede some to the Elves I suppose.

Thanks. This was a great one. And nice book quotes!


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)

Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


elostirion74
Rohan

Jul 14 2014, 2:05pm

Post #8 of 14 (1280 views)
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hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm, interesting to hear your take on how Bilbo's Ring scene works depending on whether you've already seen LoTR or you're a newbie. I'm sure the scene looks different contextually, but I haven't got the slightest idea of what a newbie would be thinking about it. I would imagine that a newbie would be suspicious about the effect of the Ring when they see Bilbo's horrified expression, though. Secondly a newbie might just as well remember how Gollum lost the Ring in AUJ and how he says: it's mine! mine! and start drawing his own conclusions about Bilbo.

Personally I really disliked this part of the scene, though - the only thing I liked about it was Freeman's excellent acting. One of the reasons why I disliked it is because it's so unneccessary in this context. I don't really see why this segment is needed in the scene, except as a contrivance on the part of the director, wanting to make callbacks and references to LoTR. Unlike the scene in Beorn's house, where the look on Bilbo's face just as well could be seen as curiosity or fascination and lends itself more openly to interpretation, this scene clearly wants to establish the insidiousness of the Ring and its ability to corrupt the one who's using it.

Secondly I think it's far too early on to have Bilbo overcome or clearly corrupted by the Ring in this way. Bilbo would be overcome by the Ring fairly quickly after his return to Vag End if one follows the logic of this scene.

Third thing I think the scene tries to establish a kind of similarity between Bilbo and Gollum and their early relations with the Ring which there really isn't a very good basis for. Bilbo never claimed the Ring in this sense or by murder, which Gollum did. I think it would be much more logical and fitting to see Bilbo justifying keeping his find of it secret or lying about/tweaking the truth about how he found it.



Retro315
Rivendell

Jul 14 2014, 5:32pm

Post #9 of 14 (1273 views)
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Re [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that they erred on the side of too much. Freeman approaches the material with nuance and subtlety, but they could have done a Gollum callback of "mine!", kept it humorous, and been less blunt about the implication of insidiousness.

It's pretty clearly coming from two places - first the split into three films means that you've got to repeat these beats a couple more times to keep the narrative running over three years (apparently ...) and second - a bit of narrative logical fallacy or loophole Tolkien had to find a work-around for - the Ring's potency while in Mirkwood - a forest presently occupied by Sauron - should be higher.

In movie-logic, once Sauron flees, Bilbo can enjoy a dormant Ring for a long, long time. But in a forest haunted by Sauron ... there's a certain logic to it. Tolkien worked around it by simply having Sauron have no idea that the Ring was out there, so he wasn't even looking for it.


elostirion74
Rohan

Jul 14 2014, 5:53pm

Post #10 of 14 (1265 views)
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my answers [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all I'd just like to say that this was a terrific post! Great screencaps, a diverse set of relevant questions and even relevant quotes from the book! All CHOW discussion starter posts have been excellent so far; I can just admire and marvel at all the fine work and thought that has gone into them, but this post was extraordinary!


A BREATH OF FRESH AIR

1 and 3:
Bilbo seeing the butterflies highlights the kind of scenes that Jackson excels at: scenes of great beauty and wonder, where the visual aestethic is highlighted. I think this scene is best appreciated for the beauty of the colours, the look on Bilbo's face just on its own merit. The work they did with the aura of Mirkwood in advance to warrant Bilbo's sense of relief wasn't nearly enough, but the visual work to show the strain on the faces of the members of the company was very well done, so you could say it's partly warranted.

4. I didn't notice, but I think it's very deliberate,among other things to provide a strong contrast to the colour of the butterflies and thereby increase the depth of the shot, which is best seen in 3D.

2. I think this is detail is added partly to fit in with the beauty of the scene, giving it a wider scope, and to show Bilbo as the optimistic and practical-minded character.


A MISSING FEAST OF STARLIGHT

1. I think the film team wanted a quicker pace and make the introduction of the elves more dramatic. I also don't think they saw a way to link this kind of scene to character perspectives and conflicts which look forward to the last film, which is what they wanted to focus on developing.

3. I think the dwarves, being confused and tired, were quickly overcome by the spiders.


ARACHNOPHOBIA

This is perhaps the best part of the scene, a pity that it was so short! The hissing and creacking voices of the spiders and how they moved was the thing that sold this part of the scene for me along with Bilbo's fear and determination. There are several fine nods to lines from the book, all of them fitting nicely in the context.


THE RING's HOLD ON BILBO

3. I don't see any indication that the creature was tempted by the Ring or wanted the Ring, so I'll say it was probably disturbed by all the noise.


4. I've answered most of this question in a reply to another post. Honestly it's not a scene I like. The acting is excellent as always, but I think it doesn't fit in the context (in other words: feels contrived), seems like an obvious reference to the LoTR films, is premature and makes the Ring and its nature seem more simplistic and flat than it ought to be, instead of showing how the Ring affects each person differently.


(This post was edited by elostirion74 on Jul 14 2014, 5:57pm)


elostirion74
Rohan

Jul 14 2014, 9:39pm

Post #11 of 14 (1255 views)
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Logical loophole? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure I understand what the basis is for talking about a logical loop-hole which Tolkien needs to work his way around. Is it implied somewhere that the Ring's power or potency should increase when it is in a place which has been affected somehow by Sauron? What we're told is that the Ring gets stronger when it gets closer to the foundation of and place of its making, which is the heart of Sauron's ancient realm, Mordor, not just by being in a place Sauron's shadow has touched. Otherwise the power of the Ring is described mainly in how it responds to and works with the will and motivations of actual characters, not the physical environment. It's potency is not stronger in the Dead Marshes, despite this being a place possibly affected by Sauron's evil arts.

In movie-logic there might be a logic to this scene beyond the obvious desire to make a reference to events in LoTR and to give Bilbo a moment where he actually claims the Ring and reacts to it simultaneously. The logic of the films, though, has mainly been to amplify the active agency of the Ring in general. Into this it's of course possible to read all kinds of connections if one wants to. I don't really see any indication in the films, though, that it's implied that the Ring's power increases and decreases according to its environment, except in Mordor.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 15 2014, 6:43am

Post #12 of 14 (1260 views)
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Regarding flies. [In reply to] Can't Post

I always assumed the "Flies" in the chapter title of the book referred, metaphorically, to the Dwarves. Flies (the insect) don't appear in the book either. But Tolkien does write:


Quote
"He beat the creature off with his hands - it was trying to poison him to keep him quiet, as small spiders do to flies - until he remembered his sword and drew it out"


and


Quote
"Bilbo was nearly tired out; only four of the Dwarves were able to stand firmly, and soon they would all be overpowered like weary flies"


That implies to me that the flies are the Dwarves.

Was there anything else caught up in the spider's webs? Shelob's Lair contained a lot of dead and rotting creatures, but I didn't spot anything other than Dwarves in DOS.


Kim
Valinor


Jul 16 2014, 4:39am

Post #13 of 14 (1244 views)
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Ah, thanks for those book references Daniel [In reply to] Can't Post

that makes sense. I didn't really look too closely to see if there were other creatures in the webs in this chapter, because, you know, giant spiders. But I did notice in the prior scene when Bilbo first twanged the web, there was definitely some sort of small critter, perhaps a bird or a (sob!) hedgehog.



"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying


“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."


http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed


Kerewyn
Rohan


Jul 24 2014, 8:25am

Post #14 of 14 (1220 views)
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I'm coming in very late with a small response... [In reply to] Can't Post

..but a non-TORn friend had just been telling me how she enjoyed the Rankin Bass version of The Hobbit (I didn't even know there was one! though I knew about the LOTR).

Her favourite part was when Bilbo's head burst through the canopy and he allegedly said:

"There are moments which can change a person for all time, and I suddenly wondered if I would ever see my snug hobbit hole again. I wondered if I actually wanted to".

Wow. That speaks volumes to me. And perhaps PJ's Bilbo's look is the equivalent of that statement. But what a strong response if he thinks he'd swap even his home comforts for the wonders of the world.























'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)

 
 

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