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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jul 7 2014, 11:40pm
Post #1 of 18
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The theme of the Silmarillion
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Reading through the Silmarillion, a few times, I think I have noticed a theme running through. That theme is mistakes. Everyone seems to make them from the highest to the lowest and good or evil. And from the start of the story to the end. From Eru, to the Valar, to Elven lords to Man or even ordinary foot soldiers, the good guys, the bad guys and those in between, mistakes and errors of judgement are everywhere. Some of these have great bearing upon events. I'm not sure what Tolkien is trying to say by this, maybe he noticed lots of people making mistakes around him, but there are quite a lotl
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 8 2014, 3:28am
Post #2 of 18
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Great point, Hamfast. If you compare The Sil to The Hobbit and LOTR, do you think the same theme of mistakes is as prevalent?
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Jul 8 2014, 3:53am
Post #3 of 18
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Aren't most stories full of characters making mistakes?
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I'm not sure if it's much more prevalent in The Silmarillion than it is in any other story--or history, for that matter.
What type of mistakes do you see most frequently? Errors in judgement? Misunderstandings? Mistakes that come from lack of knowledge? From lack of wisdom?
Some of the big mistakes that come to mind for me are
-Valar taking the Elves to Valinor (maybe)
-Valar letting Melkor lose (definitely)
-Most of Fëanor's decisions (except those that are flat out sins/wrongs)
-Turgon's lack of trust in Ulmo (when the Vala sent Tuor)
-Basically every decision Túrin made
-Maedhros's decisions that led to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears
With the exception of Túrin, nearly all of these mistakes can be chocked up to pride/greed. Basically, the desire for something without paying heed to the consequences. I think it's fair to say that the danger of pride is a major theme in the Sil--and in nearly all of Tolkien's works.
TolkienBlog.com
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 8 2014, 6:05pm
Post #4 of 18
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Why do Elves, Men, Dwarves, Valar etc. make mistakes? Because they CAN!
Then Iluvatar said to them: ‘Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this them, each with his own thought and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.’ –Ainulindale (My emphasis.)
These words indicate that Eru gave Free Will to the Valar (each with his own thoughts and devices), and this Free Will assumedly is passed to Elves, Men, Dwarves, etc. Without this Free Will all is pre-set, predestined, automated, causing a lack of knowledge (think Adam & Eve). Freedom to choose is a necessity. Without freedom to choose we have no mistakes - we have robotic automatons. And Eru sits and harkens, means that he will be aware but not interfere. And He is laughing! 
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 8 2014, 6:51pm
Post #5 of 18
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******************************************
"We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
-Robert Wilensky
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 8 2014, 7:11pm
Post #6 of 18
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*Is embarassed* *Clicks dictionary.com*
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Yes. Score 1 for Darkstone.
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jul 8 2014, 7:40pm
Post #7 of 18
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Except that Eru made no mistakes, if anything the story of the Music, shows that all of this was according to his perfect plan, even the rebellion of Melkor. So Tolkien does puts forth both the view of creatures having free will and the creator God (Eru) as being sovereign just as Christian Theology does. How does these seemingly contrary things work together? No idea. But Tolkien seems to assert both as equally true as does Christian Theology.
So I would not put Eru in the category of making any mistakes.
Not all those who wander are lost
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 8 2014, 9:00pm
Post #8 of 18
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I'd add that free will doesn't necessarily mean that your life story is determined by the mistakes you make. You can make lots of good decisions under free will also. I think Hamfast was getting at the point that much of the plot of The Sil pivoted around mistakes people made, and its history was less motivated by all the wise decisions people made.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 8 2014, 9:15pm
Post #9 of 18
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We are ALL untenable - one to the other
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So I would not put Eru in the category of making any mistakes. AGREED, and methinks it’s easy to call “hamartia” or to “Score one for” without any comment. So clever.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Cari
Bree
Jul 8 2014, 9:17pm
Post #10 of 18
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I wouldn't say that Eru planned for Melkor to rebel, it was after he did rebel that Eru said everything that Melkor did would eventually come to good. Thats just how I viewed the Music of the Ainur atleast.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Jul 9 2014, 4:19am
Post #11 of 18
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The theme is similar to all mythologies in all cultures
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That man has fallen in some way and will be doomed to a destruction of their own making if they do not fix their ways.
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jul 9 2014, 7:04pm
Post #12 of 18
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perhaps planned was too strong a word...
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though it would seem to fit into his vision and foreknowledge of the Music. See this helpful quote from the Sil:
"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
None can alter the Music without his leave and any who attempt to are in fact proving to be the instrument of Eru's in bringing about his perfect plan from the beginning. In some mysterious way, Melkor's theme finds its origin in the theme Eru had from the beginning.
Not all those who wander are lost
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 10 2014, 3:13am
Post #13 of 18
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Sometimes there's no need for comment.
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A simple word or phrase may speak for itself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 10 2014, 3:40am
Post #14 of 18
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Generally a dialogue is necessary to obtain one another's viewpoint. I'm quite sure that the posters know not my innermost true thoughts.
But such a touchy subject can easily turn personal, which we don't need here.
I have given a simplistic opinion of a complex issue, and would as soon drop it there!
If anyone would like to PM me I could further explain my point of view.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Cari
Bree
Jul 11 2014, 5:49am
Post #15 of 18
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Where exactly do you find quotes on the Internet for the books if you don't mind? ^.^
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 11 2014, 1:10pm
Post #16 of 18
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If you know "key words" for the phrase or quote you are looking for you can simply "google them".
Try - "Mighty are the Ainur" - and you will get http://www.tolkienion.com/texts/silclient.html
A word of caution: The internet is replete with error (no matter the site). I always go to the actual source (the books) before quoting a phrase.
Cheers
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 11 2014, 2:36pm
Post #17 of 18
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If it's any consolaiton, I had to look up "hamartia" too...
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...there was me thinking that it was a kind of arterial sclerocis caused by eating too much bacon.
Phew 
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2014, 11:05pm
Post #18 of 18
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In fact I think a lot of the deeds in those two tales are correcting past mistakes though there are some. Thorin, Gandalf admitting that he made a big mistake in trusting Saruman, but in the Silm they are everywhere from the first chapter to the last. Morgoth thinking that he had nothing to fear from Turgon because he was dead, for example.
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