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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
If Dain also died in bo5a does that mean Balin would be king under the mountain?


Jul 6 2014, 10:04am

Post #1 of 10 (908 views)
If Dain also died in bo5a does that mean Balin would be king under the mountain? Can't Post

An interesting what if question here. Considering also that Dains son Thorin is killed too, would the next candidate be Balin. Basically, no one of Dain i Lineage will be alive other then Dis, and I dont think they would have a queen under the mountain. The next likely people of the royal lineage are of Borins descendants. 4 Are alive at this time and they are Balin, Dwalin, Oin and Gloin. But because Balin is the eldest in the eldest bloodline, that would mean he would be king under the mountain?

Is this right? thoughts?

I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.


Jul 6 2014, 12:55pm

Post #2 of 10 (420 views)
Hmmmm I don't know. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure if the dwarven population would be able to accept a king who isn't really entitled to the throne. Dis is the rightful heir, so she might have to have another son to fix things up Crazy.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Jul 6 2014, 3:44pm

Post #3 of 10 (370 views)
Interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post

I had never noticed that Thorin (III) Stonehelm had been born well before the Quest of Erebor. I had just never given it much thought. On the other hand, we have no evidence that he was present at the Battle of Five Armies. If he had been, and if he and his father had both fallen there, then I suppose that Balin might have claimed the kingship.

On the other hand, Dis might have been able to act as Regent until someone else from her line came of age (assuming the existence of a suitable candidate).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2014, 3:47pm)


Jul 7 2014, 2:08am

Post #4 of 10 (230 views)
Indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

Had Fili or Kili lived, I think they would have been king,

Thorin III would have been next in succession, but Balin could have easily claimed it as well

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

(This post was edited by Yngwulff on Jul 7 2014, 2:08am)


Jul 7 2014, 3:36am

Post #5 of 10 (234 views)
Handydwarf Dis [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
Dis is the rightful heir, so she might have to have another son to fix things up Crazy.

I think that's funny. Laugh

"Dis, could you hurry up and bear a son already. The throne has been cold for far too long Frown. You've gotta make things right, man."

Also, I wonder, who would be an eligible candidate to father her child?

What if she has a girl instead? Just give it another go?

Then she'd be viewed as a "baby factory".

Would fertility be an issue for her?

Poor Dis. Crazy

”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin

Grey Havens

Jul 7 2014, 4:05am

Post #6 of 10 (246 views)
Actually, Dis would not have been able to claim the throne either way [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien provided a birth year for her, but as of the writing of the appendices at the back of LOTR, he did NOT put a death date for her (everyone else had one unless they were still alive at the time of the war of the ring- it even has death dates of dwarves after it).

So either he simply forgot, or she was long lived (being of the line of Durin, and the fact that Dwalin lived to 340, it's certainly possible).

If she was, then she should have been the next in line, since she's the sole remaining descendant of the elder line of Durin if women were allowed to take the throne as queen without a husband. That being said, her husband was not likely of the line of Durin, or if he was he was very, very far removed from it, so she would have married OUT of the throne, not within it (unless she married a fairly close cousin, but it doesn't appear to be so, given the family tree).

As for having another child- NOPE. That wouldn't be possible either, unless Fili and Kili's father were still alive (and it's reasonably doubtful, as it's likely he would have been in the company for the quest if he were). Tolkien writes in the appendices under the section of Durin's Folk (and I quote):

For dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous as in all matters of their rights.

I HIGHLY doubt, given Tolkien's faith and also the way he structured the elves (celibate til marriage) that dwarves as well do not have children outside of wedlock.

So if dwarf women who choose marriage take only one husband during their lives, and Fili and Kili's father is in fact dead at the time of the Quest of Erebor (and thus at their deaths) then there is no way in Middle-earth Dis would bear another child to take the throne, nor would she remarry to do so.

In answer to the OP- yes, once the elder line of Durin has ended (which it would, if Thorin III Stronghelm, Dain's son, and Dain as well were to have perished in the BO5A), the throne would thus go to the next line directly descended from Durin himself, in this case Borin's line, and the eldest remaining male member of that line is Balin.

And according to TH book, Fili is the youngest of the two brothers, while in the appendices he's five years older than Kili where Tolkien gives their birth years.

Thus the order of heirs for the throne of Erebor at this time would be (barring death): Thorin II Oakenshield, Fili (appendices)/Kili (book), Fili (book)/Kili (appendices), Dain, Thorin III Stronghelm, Balin, Dwalin, Oin, Gloin Smile


Jul 7 2014, 12:01pm

Post #7 of 10 (186 views)
*Mods up* [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for composing such a wonderfully informative post. Smile

”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin

(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Jul 7 2014, 12:04pm)


Jul 7 2014, 12:05pm

Post #8 of 10 (182 views)
Is Daín being killed off? [In reply to] Can't Post

Haven't frequented these boards as extensively for a while, but this OP seems to presuppose Daín is not going to survive the BoFA? Is there something I have missed, or is it just entertaining mindgames while waiting for that trailer?


Jul 7 2014, 12:30pm

Post #9 of 10 (162 views)
Just entertaining mind games [In reply to] Can't Post

An interesting what if question here.

That scenario has virtually no chance of becoming a cinematic reality.

Yet, we have good reason to expect the unexpected, don't we.

”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin


Jul 7 2014, 2:23pm

Post #10 of 10 (181 views)
Re [In reply to] Can't Post

We can certainly view Dis as "The Widow, Dis" if Fili and Kili's father died. Thorin's family is so fascinating - their uncle Frerin was a burned dwarf, died a long time before they were born, but would have likely shared the "sister-son" relationship with them that Thorin had. It's a lot to juggle, since his grandfather was beheaded and his father disappeared, that Thorin also lost his little brother in the War.

But nothing at all is known about her husband. Their blonde hair kind of singles them out as possibly not being Firebeards, so perhaps their father is a Broadbeam. Upon moving the refugees to Ered Luin, Thorin might have politically had to marry his dear sister to a Broadbeam Prince to help expedite the integration process. Dwarves are passionate and covetous in Tolkien's lore, so one doubts it would be purely political - you can picture ways around that, too. A romance that grew as the Longbeards settled in ... or one that already existed and allowed for the refugees of Erebor a place to go.

But while Thorin obviously had a hand in raising them and is their "favorite uncle" and they're fiercely loyal, do we actually know that their father is dead? He couldn't have died at Azanulbizar because they're too young. He had to reside in the Ered Luin, and if he's not part of the legacy of Erebor, he might've had no cause of his own to assist his brother-in-law's quest. Or perhaps he died in perilous adventures elsewhere. Or as I rather like to think; he was the Lord of Belegost and his lordly duties didn't permit him questing.

It also just dawned on me that Gimli is about the same age as Bilbo. It'd be rad to hear Gloin say "My son's about your age!"

Balin's parallel claim to lordship is exactly what led him to attempt to retake Moria, it's fairly well established. As the fellow senior "Grandsons of Frorin", Oin clearly believed in his cousin's righteous claim. Dwalin and Gloin probably thought their daft old brothers had become too idealistic, dreamed too big, and stuck with cousin Dain.

(This post was edited by Retro315 on Jul 7 2014, 2:29pm)


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