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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 6 2014, 4:54pm
Post #76 of 92
(564 views)
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But nevertheless, I find it still a claim without much basis that PJ "just doesn't care any more". WB is, of course, a whole other matter. They surely care, but probably not in the most fan friendly way. They are kind of famous for that....
I agree with most of that except, though some say they do, I do not know whether PJ cares or not. This uncertainty itself may be telling. In contrast, I certainly got the sense that he cared about LOTR. He might care, or he might just be fulfilling his contract at this point. Who's to say but him? It gets muddied up in willingness to change the story and intrude with his "juvenile predilections" (quoting myself) and whether he - and WB - cares more about himself or Tolkien.
My main point of view for the discussion about commentaries in this thread is that there will always be people who, in their love for Jackson and the product, will always be happy with whatever they are given. When that happens, standards begin to fall on this slippery slope because Jackson and WB are made to think everything is fine by these most vocal fans who accept less. The best fans (and shareholders) are those who let a company know when they need to do better to maintain their quality, and hence their sales.
By the way - beyond commentaries, I remember discussions about how the DVD menu system and film credits were not as good as with LOTR. Also, TH DVD cases do not match LOTR cases. This enters into my thoughts as well.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
(This post was edited by J Pierpont Flathead on Jul 6 2014, 5:00pm)
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jul 7 2014, 8:34pm
Post #77 of 92
(530 views)
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In my opinion... (AUJ EE special feature mild spoilers)
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You are missing out. A lot of the EE special features this time around show the cast members and their experiences of the filming, which I find I prefer.
Consider - in the LotR style cast commentary on AUJ, you might hear, over the images of the "unexpected party" scenes, some cast members reminisce how frustrating the new approach to scaling was for McKellen. They might then recount, over the next scene, how that was handled.
What we get in the AUJ EE special features instead, is behind the scenes footage of McKellen feeling frustrated during filming, where we can see and understand for ourselves, what was the challenge he faced. And we see what the production team came up with to help him feel better - what it looked like, their anticipation planning it, McKellen's reaction, etc. I was disappointed with the lack of commentary from the cast, and also from production staff like Richard Taylor, when I saw the contents list for the disk. After viewing the disks, though, I felt what they gave us instead was something I liked as much or more. It provided the same sort of information (stories about interesting and notable events of the filming, relationships among the actors and with members of the crew, etc.), only with the appropriate accompanying visual in a documentary format, rather than as a voice-over on the movie.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jul 7 2014, 8:37pm
Post #78 of 92
(529 views)
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I love those documentaries on the making of the film, part by part. Lots of behind the scenes footage, which does give the same sense that we get to know the key cast members and production staff as the commentaries gave. More so for me, because I like *seeing* these, not just hearing them.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jul 7 2014, 8:42pm
Post #79 of 92
(520 views)
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I was pleasantly surprised to find that the quality of the AUJ EE extras equaled that overall of the LOTR EE's.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 8 2014, 2:14am
Post #80 of 92
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I would agree it's great to see the people involved integrated into the documentaries. But it's doesn't have to be one or the other. Would you be less satisfied to also have the commentaries? I would posit that the video productions are somewhat more scripted in the sense that decisions about their content have more to do with the people making them than the people in them. Commentaries, though probably screened and edited, are somewhat more open to the personal choices of cast and crew themselves.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jul 8 2014, 12:07pm
Post #81 of 92
(507 views)
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...to have the commentaries only, and different documentaries. Because I like the ones that are there, more than some of the LotR documentaties, and more than I would like commentaries.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 8 2014, 1:07pm
Post #82 of 92
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We will probably never know whether they felt a commentary was not needed with the new style of documentaries, whether there was no time (and place) or whether WB did not offer the money for it.
But in the look, quality and style of the material we got I can still see the care and passion. The behind the scenes documentaries are imho indeed much better structured than those for LotR, the actors "used" in a much "better" way.
I can remember many people complaining the style of the boxes did not fit those of LotR - with which I agreed. But I cannot really for the quality of all the content (which is far above what most productions offer and at least on the level of LotR's - at some point it simply depends on taste).
I also cannot quite get why some here feel this is an indication that some here will take everything thrown at them by either PJ or WB. It is quite an unfair generalization based on very little, imho.
I find the idea ... questionable ... that - even if 2-3 posters here would infact do that - this would lead to decreasing quality. The AUJ and its content were discussed here at length with pros and cons - most users offering some of both. If there was someone somehow checking "fan behaviour and mood" they would surely have gotten both the negative and the positive.
And there are - for example - some who simply think the commentaries might have been sacked because with the scene-by-scene structure the actors had a much more direct say on each and every scene compared to the "behind-the-scenes" of LotR.
Not satisfied with less. But satisfied with something different.
(Sometimes it can be a really slippery slope here if you do not want to be called an apologist, defender or the worse consumer/viewer...)
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jul 8 2014, 1:14pm)
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 8 2014, 4:35pm
Post #83 of 92
(495 views)
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I would be less satisfied to have the commentaries only, and different documentaries. Because I like the ones that are there, more than some of the LotR documentaties, and more than I would like commentaries.
That wasn't my question. The question was would you be less satisfied to have the commentaries in addition to the existing documentaries?
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 8 2014, 9:21pm
Post #84 of 92
(475 views)
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I would think that everything on the EEs is screened and edited before we see it, commentaries included.
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It’s pretty clear that different people wanted different things from both the movies themselves and the AUJ EE. So inevitably some were disappointed and some were happy.
I was very satisfied with the AUJ EE and its appendices. IMO the documentaries were excellent, at least as good as those for the LotR movies. I didn't miss the actor and other commentaries because the actors and other crew were featured a good deal in the documentaries. But the more the merrier, so if those other commentaries had been included, it would have been fine. But I will likely watch the documentaries more often than I would have re-listened to most of the commentaries anyway.
It’s the director/writer commentary that I care about. I was a little disappointed that Fran Walsh didn't participate, because I like to hear her seldom heard perspective but presumably she had her own reasons for that which are entirely her business.
So I was pleased with the EE and its content. Since it’s the content that matters to me and I care little about the menus and packaging, it’s all good as far as I’m concerned.
Backing up a bit, IMO the fact that PJ has elected to tell the story of The Hobbit in a way in which is not pleasing to some fans has nothing to do with enthusiasm, exhaustion, indifference or even lack of love for Tolkien's works, whether he feels those things or not. He chose to direct these movies and surely the basic story was crafted and the adaptation written before filming started. Though admittedly the two to three film split probably resulted in more modifications than is usual even for PJ and his fluid style of filming. It is all a matter of artistic choices, which are satisfying to some and not to others.
I too doubt that very many people love Jackson and the movies so much that they are willing to accept anything they are given.
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 8 2014, 10:17pm
Post #85 of 92
(480 views)
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Commentaries vs Documentaries & The Slippery Slope
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...I will likely watch the documentaries more often than I would have re-listened to most of the commentaries anyway.
I would generally agree with this. I'm sure it's true for most people. I would watch the shorter documentaries before I would watch the entire film again to hear commentary. But I still miss the additional content of commentary because I would do that at least once, and I do remember them.
...I was pleased with the EE and its content. Since it’s the content that matters to me and I care little about the menus and packaging, it’s all good as far as I’m concerned.
This is part of the slippery slope of accepting what is given when it could be better, depending on how much the studio hears back from fans and what is said. For those who really care about the format and the art form, the menus are the first thing you see and use. They are indicative of the care taken to produce a quality product. When the studio hears from those who don't care, it's one more thing they believe they don't have to spend money on - until finally all the quality is whittled away by those who don't care about one thing or another. People are so varied about what they care about, it's very easy to justify a product that doesn't try it's best. Instead of trying to satisfy the demand for various aspects of quality, they end up not doing the various things some people don't care about. It's done in the name of profit and efficiency, but the result is a broken product. I'm not saying Jackson, WB & The Hobbit are there. Like you, I'm fine with what was delivered - just not with the things that are missing. I'm just saying it is a small example of what causes the inevitable trend in many franchises, brands and products. And it's all based upon what the manufacturer believes the market will bear, including vocal fans unwilling to be critical of the things they love. That's why some of us try to balance our praise with criticism - so that what we love is sure to continue to be successful. To finish, here's another example of my disappointment - the end credits: While the LOTR end credits have wonderful character sketches and the performers' names appearing with their characters, not so in The Hobbit, at least with AUJ. It's just a black field and white text. I don't believe that was done in the name of art. All those little things can add up to become more than the good things when it comes to a satisfying experience.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
(This post was edited by J Pierpont Flathead on Jul 8 2014, 10:20pm)
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Starling
Half-elven
Jul 8 2014, 10:51pm
Post #86 of 92
(450 views)
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In the LOTR films only Return of the King has drawings of characters at the end. The Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers have a black background with text.
AUJ and DOS have the same text on a black background. I think they are following the same pattern as with LOTR and I hope to see drawings at the end of the final film.
That, to me, is an example of attention to detail.
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 8 2014, 10:54pm
Post #87 of 92
(474 views)
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In the LOTR films only Return of the King has drawings of characters at the end. The Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers have a black background with text.
AUJ and DOS have the same text on a black background. I think they are following the same pattern as with LOTR and I hope to see drawings at the end of the final film.
That, to me, is an example of attention to detail.
Thanks for pointing that out. That would be awesome. If that's what happens, I'll be quite happy. Even happier if there are documentaries AND commentaries. 
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Jul 9 2014, 5:04am
Post #88 of 92
(448 views)
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The AUJ EE was pretty solid i thought.
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I did miss the extra commentaries, and the packaging was a disappointment, but overall i thought is was pretty well done. The documentaries especially are just as good as anything in the LotR EEs.
The one commentary was excellent, though i too missed Fran Walsh's presence-- she seemed to make the LotR commentaries a bit more lively. it would have been nice to have the other commentaries that the LotR EEs had, as they were very enjoyable and informative. But to be honest, i probably only listened to them two or three times. Would have been nice to hear Martin Freeman's thoughts on the finished film as it plays, though.
As for as the EE itself, it was a mixed bag. The good stuff made certain parts of the film better (the prologue, Hobbiton, Bilbo in Rivendell, the White Council), and the bad made the stuff i didn't like worse (juvenile dwarf humor (although i did like Bifur's song), the Great Goblin). All things considered, i do like the EE better than the TE. The Rivendell scenes especially benefitted from the extra material-- it slowed things down a bit, allowed the film to breath a bit more, and, most importantly, gave us more time with Bilbo. Hope the same is true for DoS, and the EE helps (especially) the early parts of the film feel a bit more like a journey, and not just brief interludes between ott action set-pieces. Just like everyone else i'm sure, i would love to see more Beorn and Mirkwood. And more Bilbo-- please. I just hope that they do not extend any of the dwarves running around Erebor, Legolas' hijinks, or Tauriel and Kili making eyes at each other.
(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Jul 9 2014, 5:12am)
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 9 2014, 12:12pm
Post #89 of 92
(431 views)
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There is no slippery slope as far as I am concerned.
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Please accept that, aside from one quibble (Fran Walsh’s absence), I was entirely satisfied with the content on the AIJ EE disks and the packaging, and all I require from the menus is that they function. For me content trumps appearance.
I am very satisfied with the movies themselves, including the EE, and the elements that I don’t care for are choices that Peter Jackson made, which as the artist is his right. I would not have him change the movies if I could.
The only thing the studio cares about is that people go to the movies and then buy the home video or other versions. Those of us who have done those things have voted with our wallets. I don’t suppose that they care if we bitch and complain and even write letters, as long as we buy.
Have you written to WB to express your dissatisfaction? Because while you have a perfect right to do so, complaining on a message board will accomplish nothing. None of us here are going to change our minds at this stage and more importantly, this little corner of the universe is irrelevant to WB.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2014, 10:40pm
Post #90 of 92
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It's seems like a damn hard and tiring job to do, and PJ has admitted both trilogies have taken a toll on him. It's is however not fair to accuse him of not caring anymore, if he didn't care he wouldn't have been so eager to make a third film (another year of exhaustion and stress) and tell the full story he had filmed.
and yes.
It's hard to keep an emotion going for many years. The man cares, volunteered for the job, and has done an excellent job, by the way. He's not going to cavort in front of our homes or in front of cameras, he's got a movie to make. It's fine for us to have our own feelings about the whole thing, it's a bit of a mistake to project our feelings onto another person, particularly the director of the movies we're focused on.
Arthur: What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: I... am an enchanter.
Arthur: By what name are you known?
Tim: There are some who call me... 'Tim'...?
Arthur: ...greetings, Tim the Enchanter.
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 13 2014, 1:48am
Post #91 of 92
(415 views)
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If "it's a bit of a mistake to project our feelings onto another person," how can we say he cares as if we know that for sure? He didn't volunteer, he was compelled because of GdT's departure. And volunteers, by definition, do not get paid. He has earned and gets paid his share I'm sure. And you might be surprised by the strong emotions legal agreements worth billions can produce, inspire, and sustain. I can tell you having been under the burden of legal agreements, they can be quite inspirational and generate a whole lot of caring about what one does. But it's more like the fear of the wrath of god than any internal motivation. Did Jackson want the job? I'm thinking he could have done without it just fine.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2014, 5:27am
Post #92 of 92
(440 views)
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Sorry, now you're calling Mr. Jackson a liar.
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If "it's a bit of a mistake to project our feelings onto another person," how can we say he cares as if we know that for sure? He didn't volunteer, he was compelled because of GdT's departure. And volunteers, by definition, do not get paid. He has earned and gets paid his share I'm sure. And you might be surprised by the strong emotions legal agreements worth billions can produce, inspire, and sustain. I can tell you having been under the burden of legal agreements, they can be quite inspirational and generate a whole lot of caring about what one does. But it's more like the fear of the wrath of god than any internal motivation. Did Jackson want the job? I'm thinking he could have done without it just fine.
He said he wanted the job and he said he was excited to do it. At first he didn't, then he changed his mind. I'm taking him at his word, rather than projecting anything.
Arthur: What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: I... am an enchanter.
Arthur: By what name are you known?
Tim: There are some who call me... 'Tim'...?
Arthur: ...greetings, Tim the Enchanter.
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