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Morgoth and Ungoliant... the original Bonny and Clyde

HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 3 2014, 6:52pm

Post #1 of 11 (820 views)
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Morgoth and Ungoliant... the original Bonny and Clyde Can't Post

Ok, I know the subject line is a bit of a joke, but I am re-reading Morgoth's Ring and I am once again confused as to why Ungoliant was so powerful that she was able to ensnare Melkor without help. It is not clear whether Ungoliant is Ainur or Maiar or an anomaly like Tom Bombadil, but she is obviously more powerful than Melkor in the "Thieves' Quarrel," although this may have not been the case when they first met.


At the time of their quarrel, Melkor was still ostensibly the most powerful of all beings in Ea, which would presumably include Ungoliant. Not even the combined powers of the Aratar could defeat Melkor until the arrival of Tulkas So how is it that a spider whose origins are unknown basically take down the Original Don Dada or el jefe?


It is interesting in Morgoth's Ring commentary of the "Thieves Quarrel" that Christopher Tolkien notes that Ungoliant refers to Melkor with the formal "you" and Melkor responds to her with the informal "thou." As CT points out, this demonstrates that Ungoliant accepts a subordinate position to the more powerful and higher-ranking Melkor, although after initially referring to him as Master, she starts calling him "Black Heart" as her power grows from gorging on the Trees and the Finwe's treasure from Formenos.


Melkor only escapes because his Balrogs here his cry and come to save the day. It could be that Melkor's power is quickly waning soon after his revenge against the Valar and Noldor while Ungoliant's power is waxing as she consumes more jewels and from the life of the Trees. As they flee from Valinor, Melkor's fear of Ungoliant increases. So maybe he notices his strength is reduced while her strength is increased.


Any thoughts?






Escapist
Gondor


Jul 3 2014, 7:04pm

Post #2 of 11 (668 views)
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Fortunately for Middle Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

nobody seems to really know!

But there does seem to be a tenuous relationship at best (if that) between even the worst and most terrifying spiders and the dark powers in high places.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 3 2014, 7:40pm

Post #3 of 11 (667 views)
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Spider steroids [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess is that Ungoliant's power grew tremendously because of the life and light she sucked out of the Trees. I think the Trees embodied the power of all the Valar, in a way, and by taking that into herself and adding it to her native power, she was able to exceed Melkor's.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 4 2014, 1:44am

Post #4 of 11 (646 views)
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by the time of his capture [In reply to] Can't Post

he was diminished significantly, many ages had passed since his arrival in arda. so much so that upon their meeting manwe was surprised by the extent of his loss of native power. he was no longer greater than the valar combined, or necessarily even greater than manwe when compared as individuals.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 4 2014, 1:52am

Post #5 of 11 (647 views)
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can you kindly provide a quote? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
elendil, hi : )

regarding manwe being surprised... can you please provide a quote?

also, is the last sentence supported by a direct quote, or is that your deduction?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 4 2014, 8:38am

Post #6 of 11 (633 views)
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if i can find it. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 4 2014, 9:33am

Post #7 of 11 (635 views)
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HOME X Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed [In reply to] Can't Post

VI Melkor/Morgoth page 391

after the fall of Utumno

"Manwe at last faces Melkor again as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 4 2014, 12:01pm

Post #8 of 11 (636 views)
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thank you : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thank you, elendil, this sounds most interesting. : ) i will fetch my copy of morgoth's ring and peruse more.

thank you for the reference. : )

btw ---- (and not having read he passage yet) --- this seems to indicate that the valar (at least manwe) was present in middle-earth during the war of wrath.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 4 2014, 6:09pm

Post #9 of 11 (635 views)
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this passage referred to the fall of utumno not angband [In reply to] Can't Post

and was prior to melkors 3 ages of imprisonment, subsequent release then corruption of the noldor and destruction of the trees. after the war of wrath he was executed and his spirit thrust into the void.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 6 2014, 10:11pm

Post #10 of 11 (610 views)
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There are some really interesting posts on this topic [In reply to] Can't Post

On A Tolkienist's Perspective:
http://atolkienistperspective.wordpress.com/...-of-melkors-discord/

http://atolkienistperspective.wordpress.com/...iant-post-follow-up/

I have to remember where the reference is, but doesn't Melkor give some of his power to Ungoliant as they proceed to attach Valinor? That, combined with Ungoliant's consumption of the light, could certainly make her more powerful than Melkor (at least at the time).

TolkienBlog.com


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 7 2014, 1:49pm

Post #11 of 11 (659 views)
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Ungoliant as a black hole... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the interesting links, IdrilLalaith....


I like the idea of Ungoliant as a black hole in the article you sent. This does make quite a bit of sense given that she consumes everything around her and her appetite is insatiable, just like a black hole. Also, black holes continue to grow as they feed on matter until in the end, they devour themselves (due to lack of any matter) into nothingness. I still wonder whether Tolkien had this in mind when he wrote about Ungoliant because the (scientific) concept of a black hole would have been rather recent during the early years of his life when he was writing his mythology; I don't know if he would have been familiar with a black hole in scientific terms, at least. There were some theoretical writings about black holes as early as the 18th century, but it wasn't until the mid-20th century that scientists really began to explain the phenomenon of the black hole to the general public.


The second link you posted gave a more metaphysical description of the Light vs. Darkness motif. Tolkien might have been drawing from metaphysics rather than science when describing Ungoliant's growing power. But in some cases, metaphysics and science might overlap or come into congruence (although this intersection might be simply inadvertent or unintentional). I am not partial to metaphysics, but in this case the metaphysical explanation might be more likely than a scientific one, although the two are not always mutually exclusive (and sometimes they might come to the same conclusion but for radically different reasons).


To move a bit into philosophy, I believe that there is an ontological case to make that Ungoliant is a metaphorical black hole. From an epistemological standpoint, however, this conclusion is probably reached from metaphysics rather than science in regards to Tolkien's mythology. But both science and metaphysics can be used to make this case.


Like Tom Bombadil, Ungoliant is an anomaly. You can make a persuasive case that Ungoliant enters into Arda as an incarnation of Melkor's discord during the Music of the Ainur. One can still make an argument that she is of the Maiar (or even a corrupted Vala), but there are arguments against her being a Maiar as well (similar to those made against Bombadil being of the Maiar).


The Ungoliant/Melkor quarrel is one that doesn't get as much attention as some of the other topics in Tolkien's legendarium (i.e. Bombadil's origins), but to me it is one of the most interesting themes in the Silmarillion.

 
 

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