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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How can Sauron be defeated at DG......

Jettorex
Lorien


Jul 3 2014, 11:10am

Post #1 of 18 (1745 views)
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How can Sauron be defeated at DG...... Can't Post

And his army that leaves DG headed for BOFA still be effective?

How will they make this work?


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 3 2014, 12:19pm

Post #2 of 18 (1173 views)
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Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Azog is the "commander of legions" he will be mainly responsible for leading the orcs into battle.

So Sauron pulling back from DG does not really effect this. There has been no indication so far that Sauron can somehow call Azog or command him other than send for him or speak to him directly (and even then Azog seemed to be a rather reluctant follower who seems to see his alligance to Sauron as a means to an end - not an end in itself).

It is not Sauron's Fall, after all, which left his armies without motivation or hope for victory.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Jul 3 2014, 12:20pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 3 2014, 12:37pm

Post #3 of 18 (1086 views)
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The Orcs already have their orders. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Orcs headed for Erebor have already left by the end of The Desolation of Smaug. When Azog finds that Smaug has flown off to destroy Lake-town (and probably also learns of the dragon's fate), he is going to be out of communication with Sauron and will have to make his own decision about what to do next. For all we know, Azog's force did not head directly to Lonely Mountain; he might have gone to the Misty Mountains first to gather goblins there and in the Grey Mountains north of Mirkwood.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jul 3 2014, 12:58pm

Post #4 of 18 (1113 views)
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I'd rather they hadn't fiddled with this aspect of the book. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron is not the force behind the attack on Erebor. I think it added an important dimension to Tolkien's world that Sauron wasn't the only evil force - even when he was quiet, or busy elsewhere, as in most of The Hobbit, there was plenty of evil to be going along with. From the hostile goblins of the mountains, to the inbuilt corruptibility of the various 'good' peoples.

Having to have one villain ultimately responsible for everything makes the world that much more shallow and less interesting - not to mention a typical Hollywood cliche that bears no relation to anything in human experience. Also, from Tolkien's perspective as a Catholic writer, it is not Satan that is the source of all corruption - as I understand it, it is the corruptibility of people and their tendency to act selfishly - to misuse their free will - that is at the heart of the world's problems. Satan is just there to take advantage of this and encourage it, much as Sauron does. It's true that Tolkien's stories are not directly allegorical, but they are applicable - they are in tune with the author's perspective on the world. Although I personally think the Christian perspective on this is nonsense, I'd rather that it was respected in adaptation, as it does underpin Tolkien's approach to his mythology.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 3 2014, 1:52pm

Post #5 of 18 (1033 views)
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I understand that thought.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... though I do not agree completely.

Imho the fiddeling with the source in regard to the Sauron plot has easily as much added to the depth of the tale as it has taken from it.

The fact alone that Azog does not seem to be too happy with Sauron's orders adds a certain level, imho. A level that has always been subtle, also in the book, but was always there: that there is a certain form of hierarchy and thinking among the Orcs that goes beyond the wills of their masters.

Another one is the greed and ancient feuds thematic. I know some think this is over-highlighted compared to the book - but imho it makes the dynamics that should be a big part of Bot5A all the more complex and interesting - the politics before the battle. This is the closest we ever come in LotR and TH to the realism of political philosophy we know from our world. I think the team has done a good job in setting that up with more nuances than in the book (no criticism to Tolkien intended, his focus and tone was simply a different one that did not warrant that nuances). The whole idea of the quarrel among the Free Peoples and the greed of some of them almost leading to a catastrophe is also still there and imho nicely portrayed so far - so I think Tolkien's perspective on Evil and Evil Deeds (or attributes) remains present and in some instances even more highlighted.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Hanzkaz
Rohan

Jul 3 2014, 1:56pm

Post #6 of 18 (1027 views)
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For the purposes of the Middle-Earth movies, Sauron is the Big Bad - [In reply to] Can't Post

- always scheming towards the downfall of the Free Peoples, with many others willing to help him to achieve it.

I'm not sure if movie Sauron will 'pretend' to be defeated, or if he truly suffers a genuine defeat at the hands of the White Council, but even then he or his minions will grab whatever victory they can.

I wonder if Azog was originally meant to attack Thranduil's kingdom, but saw the opportunity to claim a greater prize (especially if his master is no longer around for some reason).

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jul 3 2014, 2:46pm

Post #7 of 18 (1017 views)
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He's the main bad guy, but he isn't directing everything. [In reply to] Can't Post

I though LOTR got the balance right. The Moria orcs, for example, were portrayed as independently naughty. The Balrog himself seemed to be a self-employed sole trader - probably accounts for his bad mood, as he has to do all his own paperwork and doesn't get sick pay. Gollum is obviously working for himself, as is Saruman, at first. There were some nice depictions of the way that the independently corrupt get drawn towards, and fall under, the most powerful - either through fear or self-interest.

But they would still be operating, even if Sauron was defeated or inactive - as is depicted with the goblins, wargs and various others in The Hobbit.

There's a danger with these films of showing Sauron to be defeated at the end of The Hobbit - it's supposed to be a time when he's waiting and planning, with the odd skirmish and relatively unimportant defeat/feint. By nature, he doesn't do open battle until he believes his forces to be overwhelming. Putting him as the main force behind the final battle is not a very good fit for the character - he's too smart to take such a risk.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


elostirion74
Rohan

Jul 3 2014, 3:05pm

Post #8 of 18 (979 views)
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nuances [In reply to] Can't Post

When you talk about more nuances: are you thinking about things like the opposing views of Thranduil and Tauriel, Thranduil's backstory with Thorin and his grandfather and the difference of interest within Lake Town?
The films have certainly spent more time on the conflicts within and between the Free peoples, but for the most part I didn't feel it was more nuanced. The conflict between the Master and Bard as well as the basis for it is IMO polarized to such an extent that I felt it really lacked nuances rather than the opposite, Taking care to show the Master in a worse light than needed prematurely.

The book does actually spend some time on explaining the motives of Thranduil, his position as a regional power and the relation between him and the Master of Lake Town. Besides the conversation between him and Thorin and endowing him with a specific temperament and manner of speech; I find that the films so far has given him a different focus rather than a more nuanced one. The focus in the film is on his (invented) isolationism, while the focus in the book is more on his strategic thinking as a regional power. The Elven King we see in the book could hardly take this kind of isolationist stance, considering his interests and trade ties in the region.


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 3 2014, 3:54pm

Post #9 of 18 (952 views)
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Yes, those are some of the things I am talking about. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes it is also just the time spend on them, of course, which already gives one the possibility to delve further into it (in thought) - at least if one enjoys it.

Or, as I have mentioned, the moments of "disagreement" with Azog and Sauron.

But you are right - a lot of this has its nuances but is also different from the book.

As for regional power and isol. views... I think a country can have both. Actually, a lot of countries who have (or had) isolationist standpoints do/did so when it comes to international relations - but not so much when it comes to trade. I actually find it quite fitting that Thranduil wants to endure these times without getting politcally or militarily involved but still obviously enjoys the trade pay-offs with Lake-town.

Again, I do not want to play out the movie against the books here. I just did not think that the book simplified the aspects of Evil and politics (and their coming together in the last part of this tale) compared to the book.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Arannir
Valinor


Jul 3 2014, 4:04pm

Post #10 of 18 (967 views)
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But is he taking such a high risk from his point of view? [In reply to] Can't Post

(This is all movieverse) He must either think that the dragon i still alive and therefore there should not be a great battle to begin with that would put his army at risk (and certainly no King returning to the North) or that Smaug may indeed be defeated and that he is in danger of having to watch the Free Peoples fortifying the North again. In both cases it is important for him to get there... either to ensure Smaug will be an ally or to ensure the North is lost to his enemies. Not in order to strike prematurely but in order to ensure his further strategic planning will not be at risk.

But I agree that it is important to show (at least the possibility) that the whole skirmish at DG was indeed instigated by Sauron himself in order to test his enemies. There does not have to be a definate answer (as far as I remember Tolkien also offers both possibilities) - but a clear questioning of this "victory". I am pretty sure though that this will be in Bot5A. The darkening of Middle-earth has been mentioned so many times by the script-writing team, I cannot see them missing this.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Avandel
Half-elven

Jul 3 2014, 5:00pm

Post #11 of 18 (952 views)
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PS Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I though LOTR got the balance right. The Moria orcs, for example, were portrayed as independently naughty. The Balrog himself seemed to be a self-employed sole trader - probably accounts for his bad mood, as he has to do all his own paperwork and doesn't get sick pay. Gollum is obviously working for himself, as is Saruman, at first. There were some nice depictions of the way that the independently corrupt get drawn towards, and fall under, the most powerful - either through fear or self-interest.



Just to throw in for myself, nice points! "There are older and fouler things than orcs in the world..." e.g. for me, Sauron or no, I always have liked Tolkien's references to old pools of darkness about Middle Earth - independent from Sauron.

So I quite liked the shot of Smaug seemingly grinning and amused "the darkness is coming - it will spread to every corner of the land..." The way a dark being in his own right might be amused by a fellow bad guy. Was less enamored about the idea of a dragon being controlled by ANYTHING, as tho Smaug could even become Sauron's pet warg.

Not that I'm "upset" about it, as I understand there are things that need to be done for a global audience, and I will always have the books. But I think dragons, balrogs, even some of the darkest of the trees, would remain independently evil.

PS. Think the Watcher in the Water in LOTR is also an independent entity of sorts - it's hinted that because it targets Frodo it's an agent of Sauron, but is it? We never really know.....unless this is more of the Tolkien reading I need to do, for more back story.






Jettorex
Lorien


Jul 3 2014, 5:19pm

Post #12 of 18 (965 views)
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Don't you think [In reply to] Can't Post

That they will have to have scenes of Sauron directing Azog and the army from afar after he is expelled from DG or not ? I think either scenario is rather awkward.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 3 2014, 5:36pm

Post #13 of 18 (936 views)
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Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog is surely briefed by Sauron on "what to do".

I do not really see the awkwardness. I would find it more awkward to have some sort of magical connection between them that would allow them to exchange orders.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 3 2014, 5:44pm

Post #14 of 18 (926 views)
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Bomby'zz Position? All Great Writing, GUYZZ...BUT [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ will Ramp
UP any
Expectations...

Predictions
Have become
MOOT Points

since "Da MAN"
always has many
Surprizezzzz UP
His Long Sleeves.

Itzz
Alwayzz
ALL Good!

....when it
Comes to
PJ&
COMPANY!!!...

BomBelievezzz


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jul 3 2014, 8:09pm

Post #15 of 18 (874 views)
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Totally agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

The whole point of Sauron hiding in Dol Guldur is that he is not yet ready to bring his plans for war to fruition. And Gandalf even remarks that he is weakened and not ready to reveal himself. But then, a half hour later, we see Sauron sending forces off to battle. I don't get why Jackson felt he had to do this, instead of just keeping it like the book where the Orcs attack of their own volition.


Wauntaun
The Shire

Jul 3 2014, 8:13pm

Post #16 of 18 (886 views)
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He'll be defeated at DG by CG. [In reply to] Can't Post

I bet ya.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 3 2014, 9:18pm

Post #17 of 18 (870 views)
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Gandalf's Plan [In reply to] Can't Post

My view is the script writers are echoing the LOTR. Gandalf apart from wanting the Dragon dealt with and Erebor restored is trying to force Sauron to reveal himself and go to war.

As with the LOTR if he had not been taunted by Aragorn and held his lines Frodo's quest would have hopeless, it is Gandalf's plan is to draw him out in both film trilogies.

The reason the army has been released from DG is Sauron knows the company are nearing Erebor and he decides to strike first before his enemies are united or succeed in taking back Erebor. he has shown himself to be deeply interested in Thorin which we saw in action in Bree. He also has tortured Thrain and will have established what Thorin's agenda is.

The separate question and an intriguing one is if the Battle Of D G precedes the BOFTA given, Saurons arc in the LOTR which these films are threaded to, Sauron will not be seen to be utterly defeated but as with JRRT's final thoughts merely withdraws.

I appreciate Azog can lead the armies into battle independently ,but to have Sauron defeated prior to the Battle of FA having invested so much in putting in place the geo political context of the war of the north would seem odd having built up Sauron's return you then marginalise it - no. But as i have said elsewhere there are plenty of ways to keep Sauron's spirit in the film after the Battle of DG so it remains a hollow victory for the White Council.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 3 2014, 9:21pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 3 2014, 9:27pm

Post #18 of 18 (876 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe except the last paragraph. I think it could work with Sauron having withdrawn already... But I think they can easily make this work, as you also mention.

But highly agree on everything else you say and loving it that the filmmakers did include it as they have so far.

It is imho still clearly shown that Sauron is far from the power he has in LotR, especially the size of his armies and the vulnerability of his fortress.

Don't see any undermining of some better concept here... I also don't think Gandalf's comment about Sauron's state is a contradiction here. Gandalf obviously did not expect so many Orcs already under command of Sauron, although he clearly ecpeted him to build up an army.

I think he also calculates that he will be overpowered in DG but that it may be the only way to get some of the answers he wants. I am quite sure we will get something in that direction in the last movie.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.


 
 

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