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Children of Hurin Discussion: Nienor in Brethil

CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 29 2014, 6:41pm

Post #1 of 18 (466 views)
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Children of Hurin Discussion: Nienor in Brethil Can't Post

Welcome to the COH discussion! Everyone is welcome to join in, unless you're a servant of Morgoth.

Who knew a happy chapter would come along? Or shouldn't we expect the calm before the storm?

Nienor is mind-wiped by Glaurung, which ought to be a bad thing, and she runs off naked and alone into the wilderness, another seemingly bad thing, but the happy ending is that she not only winds up with the people of Haleth, she finds her brother. She gets healed by Brandir, Brethil is at peace, and she gets married. Turin gets married too. So far, so good. Oh, wait, they're siblings, and this is so wrong! I think the family of Oedipus is looking kinda normal next to the Hurinites.

This chapter feels like an Etch-a-sketch when shaken, or if you don't know that reference, it's CTRL + ALT + DEL, with everything seemingly wiped clean, even Turin's past, and people are able to start over. Only Brandir is troubled, but he seems intellectual, and intellectuals are *always* troubled, so pay no attention to him.

Though mind-wiped, Nienor's personality seems similar to the one she had in the last chapter, and she seems decent enough. I don't see a lot of Morwen or Turin in her, which is a good thing. She manages to crush Brandir by calling him a brother (*note to women: men hate hearing that when they're in love*), but remains kind to him. So what do we make of her now?

She starts off like a wild animal, then seems like a child as she relearns language. Was this the only way Tolkien could make the love story work between her and Turin, i.e., falling in love innocently? And doesn't it seem rather disturbingly innocent, like this sort of thing shouldn't happen too easily? Shouldn't a Greek chorus show up and tell them how wrong it all is? (Poor Brandir is a lame chorus of one.)

Is there logic behind their love? Nienor was searching for Turin, after all, and she found him. Should the rest follow from that? Or is the curse at work, spoiling a good thing, or Glaurung at work, having twisted their hearts? Or is this just an accident, and accidents happen?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 29 2014, 6:54pm

Post #2 of 18 (359 views)
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Signs and portents [In reply to] Can't Post

Nienor as wild animal: I often feel like I don't pick up on all the symbolism here. Sure, she reverts to a primal, naked state, but what else happens with her? She fears a shadow pursuing her, which could easily be called Glaurung's spell, but the Edain came to Beleriand fleeing a shadowy past. Is she repeating that migration in miniature?

Is it important that Turin find her naked, hungry, and mindless so that he can love her as a damsel in distress? (versus if she had ridden into Brethil on a horse with her clothes and mind intact) Was that what was lacking in Finduilas: she wasn't needy enough? Why do you think Turin falls so quickly and easily in love with her after fumbling through his past chances at romance? Or since he found Nienor on Finduilas' grave, is he thinking this is his 2nd chance with her, and phooey on what the dragon predicted about failing to save her?

Does it seem like Turin could have benefited from a mind wipe and naked run through the woods to start life over, or was he effectively doing so already? He seems a changed man until he gives Nienor the ultimatum of "marry me, or I go to war." That sounds like something Morwen would say! Would Turin's fate have been any different if Nienor hadn't shown up?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 29 2014, 7:17pm

Post #3 of 18 (346 views)
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More portents [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you think Tolkien would miss the chance to include water imagery? Nienor is drawn to cross the Teiglin, is caught in the rain, comes to a rainy waterfall, and gets a chilling sense of the future when viewing from afar the bank of the Teiglin where she'll jump to her death.

With Melian and the Elves absent, Tolkien is lacking a character with foresight to be ignored, so he puts Brandir in that role. He's got misgivings about Turin whereas Dorlas considers Turambar a great find. Brandir's motives are muddied by falling in unrequited love with Nienor. Does he seem petty to you in trying to dissuade her, or is he sincere? Why is Brandir the only one to have the creeps about Turin?

Brandir reminds me of Elrond in some ways: the leader of an isolated domain who's wise and a healer and has a reasonable amount of foresight. Unlike Elrond, his rule doesn't go unquestioned, and we view politics in this chapter as we did in Dor-Lomin and Nargothrond, with war and peace parties vying for power. If Nienor had married Brandir instead of Turin, do you think she'd survive this story?

In a less perfect way, the Tol Brandir community is a hidden realm like Nargothrond, etc, though maybe it's closer in nature to the realm of Ossiriand, where people live in scattered secrecy, not concentrated cities. For whatever reason, it's not a place I feel like I'd like to visit--it seems dull, which is unusual for Tolkien to make a place feel. Anyone else want to go to Brethil and report back on how desirable it is to live there?

Last question: the people of Haleth were sundered in speech from other Edain. When Nienor learned to talk again, did she learn Sindar or Haleth-speech?


Neldoreth
The Shire


Jun 30 2014, 6:10pm

Post #4 of 18 (322 views)
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Seriously can't stop laughing... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Does it seem like Turin could have benefited from a mind wipe and naked run through the woods to start life over, or was he effectively doing so already?


After I recovered and could breathe again (thanks for the laugh!), it seems as if Turin is effectively doing this already. He had once again changed his name and is try to to step away from his past and start over…again.

It definitely seems to me that Turin's fate would have been different without Nienor entering the at this point. Would they have met at another point in the story? Would she have died alone in the woods, only to have him discover her fate later and then meet a grief-stricken end at failing to save her? Suffice to say, this tale refuses to have a happy ending.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 30 2014, 6:20pm

Post #5 of 18 (324 views)
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maciliel thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 
turin remembers gwindor's words when he find nienor on finduilas's grave. perhaps he is thinking this is what that forewarning means.... that only nienor stands between him and his doom.

also, let's not forget that tolkien (through informed attributes) paints turin as a soul brimming with pity for other creatures. what better female catnip to such a soul than a young, naked woman in the woods who has lost her mind, and seems like a wild creature (and turin was likewise kind to birds and beasts -- as tolkien informs us).

yes, wouldn't it have been better if turin's mind had been wiped and nienor's remained intact. as long as we're wiping minds, lets wipe the mind of morwen. maybe she'd be a better person if she didn't remember how narcissistic she was.

while i'm on a roll, let's wipe the minds of the sons of feanor, so they totally forget pursuing the jewels. of course, everlasting darkness might still fall upon them, but at least they wouldn't worry about it.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Neldoreth
The Shire


Jun 30 2014, 6:21pm

Post #6 of 18 (320 views)
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Accidents do happen…and so do dragons [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Is there logic behind their love? Nienor was searching for Turin, after all, and she found him. Should the rest follow from that? Or is the curse at work, spoiling a good thing, or Glaurung at work, having twisted their hearts? Or is this just an accident, and accidents happen?


This really goes back to that never-ending "curse or unfortunate choices" discussion, doesn't it? If you take away all the evil things at work here, and just chalk up Nienor to having some sort of temporary memory loss brought on by the horrible things she has witnessed, then it seems like an innocent accident. There may be something that they recognize in each other, deep down, that helps them build a connection. Nienor may always have looked more fondly on Turin as her rescuer. Turin, may have always felt a soft spot for her because she was, as you put it, the damsel in distress. However, because this is such an awful thing to happen to them, I really really want to attribute it to the Glaurung, particularly since he is responsible for Nienor's losing all sense of identity AND Turin's new name change (just in case Nienor could recognize his name and her connection to her!).
My question is, I thought I read at some point, and I'm sorry, I really can't remember where, that Morgoth essentially spoke through Glaurung. So, is Glaurung the big bad here, or is he simply a tool that Morgoth uses to make sure the curse reaches it's disastrous end in order to fully punish Hurin?


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 30 2014, 6:23pm

Post #7 of 18 (314 views)
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wow [In reply to] Can't Post

 
wow, for one second i read that as "morwen essentially spoke through glaurung."


cheers --


,


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Neldoreth
The Shire


Jun 30 2014, 6:30pm

Post #8 of 18 (315 views)
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Well… [In reply to] Can't Post

….given Morwen's oh so compassionate nature, I can see how you could have read it that way! Wink


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 30 2014, 7:00pm

Post #9 of 18 (309 views)
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I would answer you, except, except.. [In reply to] Can't Post

once I logged onto TORN, my mind was wiped. What caused that? Who????


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 30 2014, 7:01pm

Post #10 of 18 (302 views)
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Yeah, Morwen vs Glaurung in a Niceness contest [In reply to] Can't Post

I vote for the dragon.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 30 2014, 7:08pm

Post #11 of 18 (309 views)
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Great question, Neldo [In reply to] Can't Post

Morgoth/Morwen speaks through Glaurung in a sense:


Quote
And there right before her was the great head of Glaurung, who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes had looked in the fell spirit of his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master.


If Glaurung's eyes are filled with Morgoth's spirit, I will gamble that his voice is too.

This part confuses me a little, because Glaurung installs himself at Nargothrond as a king in his own right. Not rebelling against Morgoth or declaring independence, but showing a sense of autonomy that evil minions don't usually show:

Quote
Now the power and malice of Glaurung grew apace, and he waxed fat, and he gathered Orcs to him, and ruled as a dragon-king, and all the realm of Nargothrond that had been was laid under him.

So when he speaks to Nienor, is he really channeling Morgoth, or is he a free agent who is "inspired," shall we say, by Morgoth? Or does Morgoth take hold of him at times and let him run loose around the yard at other times?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 30 2014, 7:11pm

Post #12 of 18 (310 views)
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The story does fight back, doesn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Suffice to say, this tale refuses to have a happy ending.

I get the feeling that Manwe and Varda could rain puppies, kittens, ponies, and birthday parties all over Brethil at this point, with birds singing happy songs and the sun breaking gloriously through the clouds, and angels singing in harmony while Elves and Dwarves held hands, and all for nothing, because this story is going wrong no matter what.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 30 2014, 7:17pm

Post #13 of 18 (310 views)
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Crazy naked ladies, and pity [In reply to] Can't Post

She's delivered up in a perfect parcel to him to evoke pity, along with guilt/redemption over Finduilas, and throw in a little lust/romance from the naked aspect, and I don't know how much more motivation Turin needed, unless she arrived with a new Xbox chained around her neck and a coupon for free cable TV and beer for a year. What else could a grown man want from a damsel?

But seriously, I think she was meant to play on his pity, a quality I will admit he had, though not as much as I think JRR would like us to believe.

Do you think she pitied him, once she got her mind back, or did she admire him? Did Brandir pity either one of them? Pity is such an important quality to Tolkien (Beleg, Mablung, and Elves usually have it in spades) that I'm trying to discern how much there is at this point in the story. Everyone pities Nienor, but is that where it stops?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 2 2014, 3:46am

Post #14 of 18 (297 views)
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Finding Niniel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Welcome to the COH discussion! Everyone is welcome to join in, unless you're a servant of Morgoth. Wait, let me check my Union card...no, I'm good.

Who knew a happy chapter would come along? Or shouldn't we expect the calm before the storm? Well, for a writer who mastered 'eucatastrophe' he did the opposite here, with the calm-before-the-storm accenting the utter catastrophe of the ending; which in itself I find interesting. It links Turin I think with the tale of Kullervo and other social teaching myths, where the badness will inevitably come of the easy or ill-thought-out choices on part of the protagonist. No sense of righteousness within failure as in Frodo's case; the fall is complete and can only potentially be mitigated at the Last Battle. And as it links Turin to other tales, I that same way it distances it from LOTR and TH.


She starts off like a wild animal, then seems like a child as she relearns language. Was this the only way Tolkien could make the love story work between her and Turin, i.e., falling in love innocently? And doesn't it seem rather disturbingly innocent, like this sort of thing shouldn't happen too easily? Shouldn't a Greek chorus show up and tell them how wrong it all is? (Poor Brandir is a lame chorus of one.) Brandir as the lamed, wise-beyond-appearances chorus may be significant here! As you continue below, there Is a logic to their attraction and a bit of careful-what-you-wish-for.

Is there logic behind their love? Nienor was searching for Turin, after all, and she found him. Should the rest follow from that? Or is the curse at work, spoiling a good thing, or Glaurung at work, having twisted their hearts? Or is this just an accident, and accidents happen? Glaurung didn't twist their hearts - for a change, hearts are in the right place, in truth. Its their minds that he has prepared for disaster; so I would say no accident here except to those two. Here knowledge is the poisoned fruit and when it is revealed at just the right time it is truly poison. Morwen brought Nienor into Brethil but Glaurung brought the curse home to roost.


The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 2 2014, 3:53am

Post #15 of 18 (309 views)
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The Running Man [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Nienor as wild animal: I often feel like I don't pick up on all the symbolism here. Sure, she reverts to a primal, naked state, but what else happens with her? She fears a shadow pursuing her, which could easily be called Glaurung's spell, but the Edain came to Beleriand fleeing a shadowy past. Is she repeating that migration in miniature?

Is it important that Turin find her naked, hungry, and mindless so that he can love her as a damsel in distress? (versus if she had ridden into Brethil on a horse with her clothes and mind intact) Was that what was lacking in Finduilas: she wasn't needy enough? Why do you think Turin falls so quickly and easily in love with her after fumbling through his past chances at romance? Or since he found Nienor on Finduilas' grave, is he thinking this is his 2nd chance with her, and phooey on what the dragon predicted about failing to save her
? I think there is a bit of Garden of Eden symbolism here, with her naked and 'pure' in the sense of having no past; as well as the childlike metaphor of Nienor becoming Niniel as she grows another mind. The quickness is just the natural and logical part, I think of someone who has not formed attachments well and is suddenly confronted with someone who reminds him of a long-lost sister and mother perhaps, and instinctively has a lot in common with him. The loss of inhibition and judgment that they both have is due to the effect of the curse IF we take Glaurung's targeting if Hurin's kin as coming from Morgoth, which I think we can specify. I think finding her on Finduilas' grave is JRRT's voice, and the symbolism of the disaster of the choice that Turin made which cost Finduilas her life and ultimately his and this girl he finds.

Does it seem like Turin could have benefited from a mind wipe and naked run through the woods to start life over, or was he effectively doing so already? He seems a changed man until he gives Nienor the ultimatum of "marry me, or I go to war." That sounds like something Morwen would say! Would Turin's fate have been any different if Nienor hadn't shown up? Great parallel...maybe that's part of Turin's whole endless and restless drive: to run 'naked' as it were and cast aside the old Turin; like going through that stream of names and casting them aside. It certainly seems like he ran from Thingol and Doriath: that might explain it.


The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








Neldoreth
The Shire


Jul 2 2014, 6:20pm

Post #16 of 18 (272 views)
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Inspiration indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

I kind of like the idea of Morgoth, as you put it, "inspiring" Glaurung. Tolkien's dragons are inherently evil servants of Morgoth, and although capable of independent thought, I think Morgoth can rely on them to dish out some truly horrific things to his enemies without having to check in all the time. Glaurung taking over Nargothrond still meets Morgoth's purposes by keeping tabs on anyone who wanders into this territory, giving him the chance to, well, mind-wipe and keep the evil going.

Thank you also for finding that quote...I am out of town and away from my books! (Nooooooooooo!)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 3 2014, 7:46pm

Post #17 of 18 (268 views)
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Twisted hearts or minds [In reply to] Can't Post

Great observation, Breth:

"Glaurung didn't twist their hearts - for a change, hearts are in the right place, in truth. Its their minds that he has prepared for disaster; so I would say no accident here except to those two."

Their hearts do seem in a good place, even Turin's. Normally if a Tolkien character listens to their heart, they'll come out okay, but this scenario was an exception.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 3 2014, 8:18pm

Post #18 of 18 (331 views)
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2nd childhood for all? [In reply to] Can't Post

With Nienor showing up for a 2nd childhood, do you suppose Turin saw in her Lalaith, and this was a return to childhood for him too? Conveniently enough, Sador was resurrected as Brandir, and Brethil was at peace in its interior as Dor-Lomin had been. Did Turin see this as his chance to relive his life and get it right this time?

Or maybe Nienor was a composite of all the significant girls Turin had encountered so far: the slightly daft girl in Doriath, the damsel in distress farm girl nearly raped, Finduilas (it was her tomb), and Lalaith, the innocent child from Turin's youth?

 
 

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