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Laineth
Lorien
Jun 28 2014, 11:17pm
Post #1 of 19
(763 views)
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Elves and the Unseen Plane
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Text removed at the request of the board member - Ataahua.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jan 23 2015, 6:44pm)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 11:22pm
Post #2 of 19
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your posts are always so detailed!
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your posts are always so detailed, laineth! you clearly put a lot of research into them. thank you for sharing all that hard work. : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 29 2014, 2:37am
Post #3 of 19
(594 views)
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I read the thread title and instantly imagined Arwen
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flying Wonder Woman's airplane.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Jun 29 2014, 3:28am
Post #4 of 19
(567 views)
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WW was the first thought in my head...
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 29 2014, 7:42pm
Post #5 of 19
(546 views)
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wasn't Wonder Woman visible while in the invisible plane? And if so, what was the point of it being invisible, except for concealment while being stored?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 29 2014, 7:48pm
Post #6 of 19
(561 views)
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She was supposed to be invisible.
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Wonder Woman was depicted in her television series as being visible as a convenience to the audience. In reality (if I can use that phrase) she would have been invisible unless she was seen through an open door. In addition, her plane was only invisible from the outside, as though it was under the effect of a cloaking device.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 29 2014, 7:50pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 29 2014, 7:53pm
Post #7 of 19
(559 views)
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Thanks for all the references, Laineth!
They have left me wondering if the Unseen Plane is by nature a bad place to be, since that's where the Nazgul are stuck, or if it's okay to be there, since Calaquendi naturally have a presence in it.
Were the Istari as at ease in the Unseen as the Elves, or less so?
How much of a presence did Frodo have in the Unseen after his long travail with the Ring?
If Sauron answered questionnaires, which place would he prefer to be in, the Seen or Unseen?
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Laineth
Lorien
Jun 29 2014, 9:40pm
Post #8 of 19
(539 views)
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I think the Unseen Plane is neutral (or as neutral as anything can be in Arda Marred). It comes across perfectly natural for both the elves and Sauron to exist on it.
The Istari would definitely be comfortable - they, like Sauron, are Maiar after all.
With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. - Silmarillion, Valaquenta
But of Olórin [Gandalf] that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. - Silmarillion, Valaquenta
Unlike the Elves, they are not tied to the Unseen Plane, because it is part of Arda. However, I think the unseen plane is their natural 'home' in Arda (see the quote above about Gandalf).
As for Sauron, after the Last Alliance,
Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years. - Silmarillion, Rings of Power
We are told that he “took shape” again; in LotR he is almost always referred to as the “Eye of Sauron” and we only hear about the Eye. He never physically moves in LotR. However, in Letter 246 Tolkien says that Sauron had a human-like form at that time.
As for Frodo,
He was smiling, and there seemed to be little wrong with him. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.
“Still that must be expected,” said Gandalf to himself. “He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” - Many Meetings
That gives us an idea what he became like.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 29 2014, 11:15pm
Post #9 of 19
(519 views)
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the point of concealment... she hated birds?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 29 2014, 11:20pm
Post #10 of 19
(527 views)
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re sauron not moving in lotr.... he spoke to pippin via the palantir... if that was not telepathic communication, sauron would have at least had to move his lips.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Laineth
Lorien
Jun 30 2014, 1:03am
Post #11 of 19
(526 views)
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I thought it was telepathic. Pippin says, "He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood."
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 30 2014, 4:33am
Post #12 of 19
(505 views)
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Wonder Woman was depicted in her television series as being visible as a convenience to the audience. In reality (if I can use that phrase) she would have been invisible unless she was seen through an open door. In addition, her plane was only invisible from the outside, as though it was under the effect of a cloaking device. So what you’re saying is she was invisible unless she was visible. Could she be visible or invisible at will? And I don’t recall her being visible unclothed (shucks). Perhaps like the Ring-wraiths she had to be clothed to be visible? And I don’t recall seeing her visible when she was invisible, probably because she was invisible. I just don’t know; perhaps I didn’t have my specs on at the time.
And I believe she was a member of The United Federation of Planets and was forbidden to use any form of a “cloaking device” to become invisible like the Klingons did to make themselves invisible when they wanted to become invisible. Or if they wanted to be visible instead of invisible they could turn off their “cloaking device” and become visible instead of invisible.
As for being visible through an open door, is that a screen door, garage door, door with a peep-hole, airline hanger door, or a car door? This needs to be LOOKED into thoroughly! 
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Jun 30 2014, 4:34am)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 30 2014, 12:09pm
Post #13 of 19
(496 views)
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It was a silly TV series, so I shouldn't expect it to make sense, but I was a hormonal teenager at the time and couldn't help watching her.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 30 2014, 12:15pm
Post #14 of 19
(517 views)
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because they were dumbed down Maiar when put in Wizard form, and they began to lose touch with their Maia-ness. I don't doubt that they still had a foot in the Unseen, but I suspect their metaphysical footprint wouldn't be as big as when they were full-on Maiar, and I wonder how they'd compare to High Elves in that respect.
I appreciate your point about it being neutral, or why else would Elves be there? But it almost seems like a punishment for the Nazgul for giving in to evil, so that makes it seem unpleasant. Or maybe it was punishment to be there and lose the real world and remember the delights of the real world., so I guess it could be more like exile to them and not need to be a harsh, grating prison experience.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 30 2014, 1:50pm
Post #15 of 19
(497 views)
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It was a silly TV series, so I shouldn't expect it to make sense, but I was a hormonal teenager at the time and couldn't help watching her.
Well, Wonder Woman was a comic-book character long before there was a television show. I was drawing more from the comic-book sources than from the t.v. series. Still, the concept is simple enough: Diana's plane was invisible from the outside, and anything fully enclosed in it was also rendered invisible.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 30 2014, 1:54pm)
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Laineth
Lorien
Jul 1 2014, 2:30am
Post #16 of 19
(482 views)
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I agree that their 'presence' would be a lot less as Istari insead of Maiar. I think they would be around the same power level as the high elves, but I don't have any quotes to back that up. 
Do the Nazgul even remember? They've been completely dominated and corrupted. I think the punishment was like for the Dead - they will never be able to pass from the circles of the world like they were supposed to. I wonder where they all go, when they die? The text doesn't say if they're blocked from passing on or not, at the end of LotR.
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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell
Jul 5 2014, 2:49am
Post #17 of 19
(460 views)
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Really fascinating and thoughtful piece, Laineth. Most interesting thing I've read in a while. Thank you for putting it together.
I'm sorry to be late to the party, but I have some questions.
Gollum is not completely corrupted, but he his corrupted enough that the darkness in him cannot stand the inherent light of the Elves and their things. It's important to note that the mallorn leaves merely smell bad (probably because of being around Elves, Mirkwood didn't have any mallorn's), and that it's the things made by the Elves that hurt him. The hurt is not on the Physical/Seen Plane, but the Unseen Plane.
Is (or to what extent is) Gollum's corruption the thing that renders him incompatible with Elvish artifacts, or is it his long-term exposure to the Ring and it's pull towards the Unseen Plane that makes him hyper-sensitive to the "light of the Elves and their things"? Whence cometh the "darkness in him [that] cannot stand the inherent light of the Elves and their things"?
Would you expect someone with much inner darkness, let's say Bill Ferny, but with no unusual connection to the Unseen Plane, to be put off by the Elvish light in ropes or food or other things?
Or is the the key element the fact of having been pulled into the Unseen Plane? I think of Bilbo, the mortal whose exposure to the Ring comes closest to that of Gollum, albeit still much less. Clearly Bilbo's physical body has been affected. There are hints of the negative influence on his personality and spirit, although one probably could not call him corrupted. There is certainly no aversion to the light of the Elves in Bilbo.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 5 2014, 7:21am
Post #18 of 19
(469 views)
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We have a very small sample of Bearers.
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One of the common theories is that what the individual brings to the experience is a major factor in how the Ring affects him.
Gollum got it by murder, and committed murder many times during his stewardship of the Ring. In other words, he was partially corrupt to begin with.
Bilbo took the ring in a "game"... he didn't exactly cheat, but he pushed the rules a little because he was trying to save his life. Thereafter, he did not use the Ring to commit evil, and relinquished it willingly (well, mostly). As an individual, he never sought power or domination, which it is "programmed" to work with.
Similarly, Frodo was not a power seeker, and although he used the Ring to dominate Gollum in aid of fulfilling his mission, he also showed few signs of corruption until he fell under its power at the very end, at its home and the site of its greatest strength.
So, I would say that Gollum's sensitivity to the Elven artifacts was largely due to his inherent corruption, which was magnified by the Ring during its long hold over him.
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Laineth
Lorien
Jul 7 2014, 2:36am
Post #19 of 19
(472 views)
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I agree with what Elizabeth said, about the amount of inherent corruption being important. Regarding the part about the Unseen Plane itself, I think it's both. Because of Gollum's 'natural' corruption, the Ring has a much easier time of corrupting him more. More time with the Ring/Ring corruption, more sensitivity to the Unseen Plane.
I don't know about Bill Ferny. I think he would be slightly uncomfortable, but not nearly enough for it to be noticeable. Of course, I have no text to back that up.
Thanks again!
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