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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jun 30 2014, 3:52pm
Post #51 of 60
(303 views)
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He was the most powerful being on the 'good' side, until they found out what he was really up to in FOTR. Until that point, anything he said would have been listened to attentively - plus he had a powerfully persuasive voice. In AUJ, they allowed him to appear sidelined and ignored by two members of the White Council. The whole added plot with the dwarves shows Gandalf being less than deferential to the head of his order - a completely unnecessary addition that contradicts the book, and weakens the sense of betrayal that was so effectively shown in FOTR. They need to put Saruman back at the centre - both as a powerful force and as a leader - in order to retrieve the drama that they worked so hard to create in FOTR and TT, concerning the seriousness Saruman's betrayal. If he's already established as a minor force, easily sidelined and ignored, and weaker than the others, then so what if he goes and joins the other side - it's not a major problem.
Tale of Years: Third Age, 2939 (two years before the quest for Erebor)
"Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council."
ToY, Third Age, 2941 (the adventure year)
"Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur..."
It's fairly obvious that Saruman was already bent on retrieving the Ring for himself, otherwise he would have told the others where he suspected the location of the Ring to be. (Of course, he was already too late, since Gollum had retrieved it centuries before, but he wouldn't know that.)
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jun 30 2014, 5:16pm
Post #52 of 60
(289 views)
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...[Saruman] was the most powerful being on the 'good' side...
Excellent points to the rest of it, but I thought Galadriel "was the most powerful being on" Middle-earth? *guffaw*
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Jun 30 2014, 11:11pm
Post #53 of 60
(268 views)
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I really would like to see both Elrond and Galadriel take up arms, even if not against, Sauron. It would be interesting how they would differentiate the skills of these two high elves from the other elves such as Legolas and Thandruil, for example, hopefully without looking too comical. Galadriel in particular, as to why she has been chosen to lead Lothlorien and the other leadership mantle she took earlier on as I don't think simply being old and Noldon automatically makes you a "leader." And after Arwen pulls the river stunt in FOTR, Elrond and Galadriel should do much more than this to get street cred in the movie at least..lol.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jul 1 2014, 6:56am
Post #54 of 60
(256 views)
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I agree with you about your point about what Tolkien wrote v the cinema "get" of a show down.
However i think what the script writers have down in spades already is link these movies to their existing ones and that will have been uppermost in their mind when they framed the WC V RW and Sauron and its outcome.
Personally i think there is an easy way to do this and be remarkably cannon. "Then he gave way before us , but only feigned to flee"
We can all think of some great cinematic ways you build up the tension, create the confrontation with only some of the protagonists involved and damaged physically, whilst others use magic and symbolism, with Sauron, displayed in the form displayed in DOS, appearing to be vanquished in an entirely enigmatic way.
If we get the walls of Jericho moment from Galadriel then we also, through the ring, need to get the re ignition of the eye and the return to Mordor which right now i would judge as a subplot step to far in story telling terms when there is much else to be resolved. To defeat Sauron utterly not only breaks the sub creative rules of Tolkien but makes no sense in the movie universe. A walls of Jericho moment for me would suggest a complete defeat unless you start getting out the trowel, mix the mortar and begin the rebuilding of Barad Dur. The threading to the LOTR can be done with out that kind of reversal.
The recent letteri interview suggest linkage and scene setting is very much in their mind as they finish painting the CGI canvas the what, why and how is the burning question for me of film 3!!.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 1 2014, 7:10am)
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Rickster
Rohan
Jul 2 2014, 12:41am
Post #55 of 60
(223 views)
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Under the assumption, of course, that they do, with or without Saruman, Radagast and even Gandalf (once he's freed).
If he has a physical shape, which I doubt he will (I have a feeling he will have kind of smoke shape but nothing solid which will allow him to escape or disappear on the air rather than by foot), then this also means that slicing him with a sword or shooting him with an arrow is most likely out of the question. The three Wizards are capable of producing force field white bubbles or mystical blasts, but so far all we know - aside from the Elves' skill in weaponry, is that both Elrond and Galadriel can do elemental enchantments, and that would rather be kind of "slow." Elrond has Maian descent, and Galariel was privately Maian trained, but I can't really see both of them creating force field bubbles like the wizards...Galadriel has a Phial, but it looks rather silly using that in battle...not sure...or maybe they'll Enchant their weapons or something...lol.
GOM
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 4 2014, 9:07pm
Post #56 of 60
(197 views)
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I never got the impression that Gandalf was shocked to learn of Sauron's reemergence in Mordor...
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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As I saw it, the only surprise was that Bilbo's ring was, in fact, the One Ring. That coupled with the fact that he had come by the news that Sauron had learned the whereabouts of the Ring through Gollum.
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Name
Rohan
Jul 4 2014, 9:51pm
Post #57 of 60
(193 views)
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As you can see in my other posts on this thread, I'm more worried about how Gandalf's lack of action can be explained for those 60 years. Because of this, I think a sound defeat of Sauron at DG will help. If Sauron simply flees, and everyone knows it, I have to ask why Gandalf does very little over the next 6+ decades.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 4 2014, 10:53pm
Post #58 of 60
(189 views)
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He was just resting from being shagged out after a long squawk.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Jul 4 2014, 10:55pm
Post #59 of 60
(188 views)
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For Sauron to at least appear to have been utterly defeated, or at least defeated, but the WC was not aware that he survived. I mean it took him such effort to even subdue Gandalf and could not possibly imagine how he could fare any better against Sauron, Radagast, Elrond and Galadriel (and with Gandalf as well), as to how he survives and makes it look like that he actually died is what I'm curious about...hopefully, it won't look like some kind of horror movie cliche where the monster is never really dead in the end.
It would also be cool to see Galadriel or Elrond use the daggers of the Noldorin; the rumors mentioned that she will go to battle; I hope it's not just destroy the fortress with a chant or song. I would also see Saruman use his voice and its effects on the orcs.
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jul 5 2014, 12:24am
Post #60 of 60
(205 views)
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...as to how he survives and makes it look like that he actually died is what I'm curious about...
...I would also see Saruman use his voice and its effects on the orcs.
How about this: Sauron's energy bubble surrounding his amorphous presence implodes under the force of the assault by the WC. Sauron is seen as a black wisp (think Harry Potter) rising from the battle and heading in the direction of Mordor.
As for Saruman's voice and the orcs, all they have to do is play Christopher Lee's heavy metal music at them.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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