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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 24 2014, 12:19pm
Post #1 of 23
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Frodo, the Reluctant Hero
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I don’t know if there has ever been a pole on who was the singular ultimate hero of The War of the Ring, (if so I’m sure I’ll be told where to go) but I suppose the results might be something like 45/45% Frodo/Gandalf with a 10% smattering of Aragorn, Samwise, and a few others. My comments are not to take sides (although it may appear so) but to. investigate the evolution of Frodo: First, Frodo came by The Ring by chance or providence or as Gandalf put it, “You were meant to have it.” Frodo had The Ring for about 18 years and he appeared to be little affected, beyond being loathe to throw it in the fire at Bag End. (I believe he may have had less trouble giving it up than did Bilbo who bore it for 60 years.)
It has been mentioned here and there that Frodo had a decision or choice to make – leave The Shire or stay. My thoughts are he had NO choice. He was informed by Gandalf that Sauron knew The Ring was found and he was searching for it; Sauron had heard of The Shire and was searching for it (Gollum seemed to know roughly where The Shire was and most likely told Sauron); and Sauron had heard of the name Baggins! Tolkien emphasizes Frodo’s desire to save The Shire, but he (Frodo) also had to be in fear of his own life:Frodo: “I am a danger . . .I cannot keep The Ring and stay here.”
Gandalf: “. . .and for your own sake, as well as for others, you will have to go . . .”
Frodo: “I also fear, if you want to know, that it is no joke at all; and that I am not safe here or anywhere else.” (My bold). So, yes, the ultimate decision (leave or stay) was up to Frodo. But what were his choices? Stay and wait for his, and The Shire’s destruction? Give The Ring to Samwise and tell him to head east toward Rivendell, “I’ll catch up later.” Of course not. His only choice (which amounts to NO choice) was to leave The Shire, which would be the decision of any reasonable logical person of good will and common sense, and a tendency toward self-preservation. There are no heroic tendencies here. To stay is folly. He had NO choice!
Then at The Council of Elrond: (Up to this point Frodo showed no tendencies toward unusual bravery. Yes, he did suffer from the Weathertop wound, but suffering of itself does not make a hero.)
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, a if in deep thought. To this point Frodo was the Ring Bearer. The Ring was his! He had to have uneasy feelings during this apparently lengthy pause as all eyes were cast downward not looking at him – as if waiting for Frodo to speak. It must have seemed to him that he was almost being compelled to speak. And now, for the first time, our somewhat normal Hobbit takes a leap into the realm of the heroic:I will take the Ring . . .though I do not know the way. As here Frodo DID have a legitimate choice: Could he not have said, “This is beyond any simple Hobbit such as myself. I choose now to give The Ring to one of the Great and Wise to attempt this perilous Quest.”
But, after the departure of The Fellowship, Frodo is mainly a follower, although showing great bravery (though not what would be termed heroic) in the Mines of Moria. Not until the Breaking of the Fellowship does he take that quantum-leap into the realm of the True Heroic - as he decides to set off alone on the Quest!
From this point onward (Feb. 26 – Mar. 25) we see the TRUE makings of a Hero. That he failed his mission in the end in no way detracts from the fact that his actions during this month’s time were heroic.
As Tolkien’s tears fell on his manuscript as he was writing of the honoring of the Hobbits at the Field of Cormallen, so our tears fall in the reading. Yes, Frodo was to all, a True Hero of The War of the Ring; but was he the singular Ultimate Hero? Or was it Gandalf? To quote the words of Aragorn in The Last Debate:Let none now reject the councels of Gandalf, whose long labors against Sauron come at last to their test. But for him all would long ago have been lost (My bold.) But to discuss the heroic in Gandalf is for another time.
In summary: The mission is to destroy The Ring. Part of the beauty and intrigue of LotR is there are several heroes (as well as several incidences that needed to take place in order for the Quest to be accomplished).
In the end I believe it is up to each of us to decide (if we wish to choose) who OUR singular ultimate hero was.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 6:48am
Post #2 of 23
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Frodo certainly doesn't ask for any of it…
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…it turns out to have come with the keys of Bag End. Interesting post!
I found your thoughts on Frodo's real options very interesting! You are quite right- he probably can't really hide (though in the books, we don't yet know how close pursuit is when Frodo sets out). Nor can he pass the Ring on, or throw it away (or at least I think not, given Gandalf's "a ring of power looks after itself " comments). Quite a bind! He could, I suppose, panic and try to run away or hide, and that is what he doesn't do, and that is pretty heroic.
You are quite right that he's not a volunteer until the Council if Elrond (and that with a voice which seems to be using his will: something which could be interpreted as some form of outside compulsion). But he sticks with the job he's taken/ been given.
There's a further episode at the end of rotk, where Frodo sets off to Mordor alone, rather than go with the majority position that they should go to Minas Tirith ("at least for a time" - right ). In that flash of free will he takes the Ring off says "I will do now what I must" and heroically goes off to Mordor, definitely an heroic volunteer now.
And it breaks him. Aragorn gets the traditional kingdom and marriage. Sam gets the scaled-down-to-hobbits equivalent: Bag End, mayoral chain and bride. Frodo loses it all:Ring, finger, health, worldly status.
So Frodo's an interesting and unusual hero. I think! The heroism of accepting and making the best of the situation you've been put in through no choice of your own.
I'm not sure how I'd vote in a poll for "ultimate hero" though: I'm not sure this tale has a single, ultimate one...
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 25 2014, 6:52am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 6:59am
Post #3 of 23
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...but it doesn't mention Frodo.
But I think Frodo didn't really have any choice at Rivendell. To bear the Ring is, basically, to be owned by it. Only Sam was able to give it up easily, and then largely because of his selfless love for his master. Bilbo gave it up with great difficulty.
Frodo did try, once with Gandalf and once with Galadriel. This in itself is remarkable. The first time, he hadn't had it very long (but had already proven incapable of throwing it in the fire). I wonder what would have happened if Galadriel had accepted. Could he really have given it to her?
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 25 2014, 7:05am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 5:01pm
Post #4 of 23
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'Some other will' at Rivendell
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But I think Frodo didn't really have any choice at Rivendell. To bear the Ring is, basically, to be owned by it.
Interesting! Do you mean that the Ring wants Frodo to take it to Mordor (and so is the 'some other will' in the following):
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice."
The Council of Elrond.
I'd never thought of that possibility, but it's entirely logical that the Ring would wish to be taken closer to Mordor. (That's assuming that it has enough agency to 'wish': I've never felt sure how much agency to assume it has).
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 5:05pm
Post #5 of 23
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There's a further episode at the end of rotk, where Frodo sets off to Mordor alone, rather than go with the majority position that they should go to Minas Tirith ("at least for a time" - right ). In that flash of free will he takes the Ring off says "I will do now what I must" and heroically goes off to Mordor, definitely an heroic volunteer now.
WWIT? = what was I thinking?
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 25 2014, 5:41pm
Post #6 of 23
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...if Galadriel had really wanted it she would have taken it, even if she left Frodo broken.
Indeed, I think there are indications that she'd already decided to take it.
But I think Frodo's innocent guilessness in offering her the ring is what warned her off. I think it really shook her that Frodo actually thought he could voluntarily give up the ring when she knew that he absolutely could not. As a result she decided she wanted no part of the insidious thing.
Once again Frodo saves the day.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 5:46pm
Post #7 of 23
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When did Frodo become an exceptional Hobbit?
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But I think Frodo didn't really have any choice at Rivendell. To bear the Ring is, basically, to be owned by it. As you say Frodo offered it to both Gandalf and Galadriel. And I believe he would have given it up in either of these instances (easily or not). Why then would he not, or could he not, give it up at the Council as the Ring sits on the table not in his possession?
And you say that “to bear the Ring is, basically, to be owned by it.” Bilbo gave it up, Samwise gave it up, and with the setting at the Council I believe Frodo would have given it up.
To say that he had no choice at the Council is to diminish his stout heart, his strength of will, and, most especially, his entry into the heroic.
I think, yes, he did, for the first time, have a choice. (Sorry for the redundancy and rambling.)
Cheers
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 8:10pm
Post #8 of 23
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...if Galadriel had really wanted it she would have taken it, even if she left Frodo broken.
Indeed, I think there are indications that she'd already decided to take it.
Can you pick out what these indications are? They're something I've completely missed, so I'm very interested in this interpretation. And I know you to be a very shrewd reader, Darkstone! I'd picked up no more than that she'd sometimes mused in that direction…
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 8:55pm
Post #9 of 23
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darkstone, do share your observations re this.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 27 2014, 3:30pm
Post #10 of 23
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His choice was in how he did it
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He did not panic nor have hysterics when he heard the news; he was frightened, but he maintained his composure, enough that only those who were closest to him realized anything was wrong. He trusted Gandalf.
He could have responded like Gollum--taken the Ring and fled with it all by himself to some hidey-hole in the hopes of avoiding it being taken from him, and with no regard to the safety of the Shire or anyone else. (Though if he had, I think the Enemy would have found him in a lot less than 500 years this time!)
He did not. He took Gandalf's considered advice and made careful plans.
He volunteered to take the Ring, and I do NOT think that the "voice" which prompted his response was the Ring. I think it was more of the prompting of Providence and the kindling of his own courage; from there he becomes more and more heroic, continuing on in spite of his suffering.
There are many heroes in LotR: Gandalf, the mover and shaker; Aragorn, a hero in the ancient noble mold; Sam, a hero in the more modern sense of a character who grows and triumphs and ends up greater and wiser than he began, and Frodo, who was more a hero in the saintly mold.
Think about it: he goes forward knowingly into suffering and does not turn back or falter, a martyr, for he's clearly convinced in his own mind he will not survive this quest; he senses he will lose his life. His success was not through any effort of his own, but was accomplished by mercy and grace (a literal Deus ex Machina, if you will--the machinations of Eru coming to fruition). Aragorn and Sam get earthly rewards. Frodo is denied material rewards and earthly glory. Instead, he must continue to sacrifice even the small life he has accepted for himself as a guest in his own home--but then he goes on to a different reward.
I don't consider "into the West" a metaphor for Death; instead it is a metaphor for withdrawing from the world to grow closer to that Kingdom beyond the world--again, reminiscent of the many saints who withdrew into monasteries or convents or became hermits, in order to grow closer to God by forswearing the material world. He will indeed die in the West--but not before he has gained wisdom and healing.
I think that for JRRT, who was Catholic, that was the template he used to build Frodo Baggins.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 27 2014, 8:21pm
Post #11 of 23
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Dreamflower – I see little contention
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between our interpretations of Frodo’s struggles. Just a singular (short) thought on one comment:
His success was not through any effort of his own, but was accomplished by mercy and grace (a literal Deus ex Machina, if you will--the machinations of Eru coming to fruition). I have come across this premise before. Was Eru/Iluvatar aware of the “fall of every sparrow” – yes. Did he become “involved” with the fall of every sparrow – No! If so, why allow The Ring to be made in the first place (or (to back up) why allow Melkor to disrupt The Music). In Ainulindale Eru gives the Ainur free will and says, “But I will sit and hearken . . “ (Showing non-interference.) So Mellor disrupted The Music simply because He COULD; he had the free will to do so!
Back to Frodo: To allow that his success was due to “grace”, “mercy”, “providence” etc. is to lessen his accomplishments as an individual of “free will”.
Frodo is denied material rewards and earthly glory. Instead, he must continue to sacrifice even the small life he has accepted for himself as a guest in his own home--but then he goes on to a different reward. Here Frodo seems to have free will by sacrificing and accepting; no grace or mercy appears to be involved. Can we have our cake and eat it too?
Apologies if I’ve taken you somewhat out of context; it’s just that I find the subject matter of great interest.
And your “into the West” (final paragraph) comments will go into my personal “books”. So absolutely and succinctly well put! And my thoughts exactly, although I’ve never been able to put them in such worthy words.
In kindness,
BG
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Jun 27 2014, 8:23pm)
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 27 2014, 8:56pm
Post #12 of 23
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Frodo's accomplishment was in what he did in getting there...
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To allow that his success was due to “grace”, “mercy”, “providence” etc. is to lessen his accomplishments as an individual of “free will”.
Tolkien dealt with this theme extensively in Letter #236, written in September 1963. First of all he says its been clear from the start that Frodo would not be capable of throwing in the Ring when it came down to it. He goes on to explain the role of Pity and Mercy. In regards to what Frodo chose:
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love--to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been--say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock."
He basically says that because Frodo did his best, made his choice to continue as much as he could, sacrificed himself as far as he could, that at the end when he fell (and again, JRRT makes it clear that Frodo's fall, unlike his choice to undertake the quest, was not of his free will, but due to the fact that the Ring simply overwhelmed him at the last) that it was then that "grace , mercy, providence, etc" stepped in to see the task completed.
And furthermore, the means for Providence to do so had been provided by Frodo's free will choice to show mercy and Pity to Gollum, though Gollum was undeserving of it and in spite of the fact that Frodo would have known Gollum could not be trusted and might betray them.
(BTW, in that same letter, he describes the scenario that might have happened if Gollum had truly repented of his villainy: he would have come to love Frodo, but would still be under the mastery of the Ring. At that point he would be conflicted between his new love and his old obsession with the Ring. He would still have tried to take the Ring, but instead of falling in as he gloated, he would have voluntarily cast himself in with the Ring.
He also says that is likely what would have happened with Frodo: that having claimed the Ring, he'd see that he could not keep it from Sauron, and would have cast himself into the abyss. Only that there was no time for it to happen because of Gollum's attack is what ultimately saved him.)
(This post was edited by dreamflower on Jun 27 2014, 9:03pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 27 2014, 10:40pm
Post #13 of 23
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Did I not say this was “interesting subject”
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And subject to volatile opinions (which I would rather shy away from, and will from this point). The bulk of your statement deals with Frodo’s failure at Mt. Doom. Yes, here his ‘free will’ was gone. He had been consumed by the power of The Ring.
You take Tolkien’s statement (Letter #246 literally and unequivocally, with no mention of Frodo’s fear of his own life by Tolkien. Fine! Common sense? No.
Our only opposition, it seems, is between “free will” and “providence”. So be it.
If Eru was “interfering” He did a rather poor job. If God is interfering today He is doing a damn poor job.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 28 2014, 12:35pm
Post #14 of 23
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I think it fascinating to consider this subject, both from inside and outside.
I didn't mention Frodo's fear directly, but I did say that he managed to control himself and not become hysterical, so I'd say that acknowledges that the need to control himself indicated fear. Perhaps I should have been more plain: of course Frodo feared for his life, but he chose to overcome that fear.
Of course, story-externally, Eru is basically about Authorial Intent, and Providence is Tolkien working out his plot to fit his themes. I have another personal opinion on that plot and those themes which could be far more controversial and off-topic from your original question as well. Perhaps I'll put that theory up for discussion at another time--I like keeping discussions friendly. 
Story-internally, I see it working out much better than it could have. All of the threads and events came together to result in victory for the host of the West and the destruction of Sauron without any interference with the free will of many heroes of the story--and significantly, most of the main characters, especially Frodo, survive. And it is the selflessness and willingness to sacrifice themselves for others that enables them to survive in the end.
Because of their past mistakes the Valar know they cannot directly interfere without making things worse, (though I see a number of signs of their more subtle aid woven through the story) and any aid that Eru Himself set in motion is implemented as each character makes his or her decisions which move things forward.
Having read several "dark-AU" scenarios, I know very well that there are many points on which all could have failed and fallen apart. What if the W-K had succeeded in slaying Frodo at Weathertop? What if Gandalf had not fallen with the Balrog and therefore didn't get a "power-upgrade" as was needed to deal with Saruman? What if the Elves had not missed shooting Gollum in Lothlorien? What if Galadriel had not been able to "pass the test"? What if Boromir had succeeded in taking the Ring from Frodo? What if Frodo had been delayed even a few hours near the end? That barely brushes the surface of things that could have changed everything. All these ideas are constructed from hindsight, and from the readers who come up with them knowing the pivotal points at which all was most vulnerable, but it does go to show what a beautifully delicate framework the original story was constructed with so that all came together in the end.
As to what sort of job God is doing in the universe today, I will say we may disagree on that point without rancor. 
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 10:28pm
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It’s a blessing that we have left today’s “Land of Volatility” and entered the Tolkien “Land of What If?”.
One (among many) “what ifs” that interests me begins with Elrond’s words near the end of The Council of Elrond, “This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the great.”
Frodo and Sam’s contributions are without question. What about Merry and Pippin? Were their contributions more than Merry’s assistance with the Witch King; and Pippin’s dispatch of a troll before the Morannon? Here I jump forward to the Battle of Helm’s Deep, and will return to Merry and Pippin’s part in this particular conflict.
Now a chain of events begins with the breaking of The Fellowship near Parth Galen. For, if Merry and Pippin hadn’t been kidnapped they would not have met Treebeard and he may never have gotten “hasty” and called for Entmoot. (As Gandalf says to The Three Hunters, “… their coming [Merry and Pippin] was like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains.” (Bk. 3, Ch. 5) And later, “. . . the tidings that they brought have spilled it:” (ibid) (Treebeard’s long slow wrath).
If Entmoot had never taken place the Ents (and Huorns) would not have destroyed Isengard, and the forest of Huorns & Ents would not have been involved in the Battle of the Hornburg and Helm’s Deep may have been lost, and the Aglarond taken.
(I had always assumed that the sally of Théoden, Aragorn & Co. from the Hornburg was an act of extreme desperation, perhaps we could go as far as to say, a “suicide mission”? As Théoden says, “I fret in this prison . . . maybe I could have felt again the joy of battle, and so ended.” and, “It is said that the Hornburg has never fallen to assault, but now my heart is doubtful.” And in the same conversation with Aragorn, “The end will not be long,”…”Maybe we shall cleave a road, or make such an end as will be worth a song—if any be left to sing of us hereafter.” (Bk. 3, Ch. 7)
Theoden’s seemingly hopeless fears at this point seem justified as before the sounding of Helm’s horn and before the sortie of Théoden and Aragorn the orcs had taken control of the Coomb, the Dike, the Wall, and were pouring through the breach in the culvert into the Deep, and preparing to charge through the blasted main gate. The outlook was very grim. The enemy’s spirits were high, but then—“…a murmur arose behind them. . .” and, “The orcs upon the Rock, hearing the rumour of dismay, wavered and looked back.” (ibid)
This murmur/rumour of dismay could only have been caused by the Huorns and Ents north of the Dike as Erkenbrand and Gandalf had not yet appeared. Thus it was the Huorns that caused the “wavering and dismay” of the orcs and stalled their advantage giving the foray of Théoden and co. more than a token gesture of futility. (Yes, the sounding of Helm’s Horn caused many orcs to “cast themselves on their faces”, but this was after the initial “rumour of dismay”.)
Then, could we not venture to say if it were not for the “murmur” of the Huorns the orcs (and men) having a decided advantage would not have “wavered” and the sally would have failed, and Théoden and Aragorn would have been killed, and Éomer would have been pressed back to defend the Aglarond? The Battle of Helm’s Deep would be a defeat. Thus the chain of events circles back to Merry and Pippin’s meeting with Treebeard.
If the Hornburg fell there would be no mustering of Rohan (or very depleted and leaderless) and Aragorn would have been unable to take the Paths of the Dead and call upon the Dead Men to fulfill their oath. There would be no riding to Gondor of the Rohirrim, and no arrival of Aragorn and the Corsairs. Minas Tirith may likely have fallen and there would be no Army of the West to “assail” the Morannon.
Sauron would then have felt no need to assemble the orcs, trolls and men at the Isenmouthe and Udûn and fortify the Morannon. He would have been more inwardly vigilant (already having proof of intruders) and the trek of the Ring Bearers to Orodruin would have been swarming with enemy and Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) would surely have been captured (for good this time) and Middle-earth doomed as Sauron captures his Ring.
(I have made little mention of Gandalf and Erkenbrand, as Theoden & Co. had clove their way to Helm’s Dike, and it appears that several minutes passed before “The White Rider was upon them . .” (orcs); and the charge of Gandalf and Erkenbrand seems almost the chore of a clean-up-crew.)
And I wanted to emphasize the effect of the “Shire-folk” – Merry and Pippin.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 29 2014, 12:36am
Post #16 of 23
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I have to say I agree completely as to the roles of Merry and Pippin
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Especially the part you mention, in dealing with the Battle of Helm's Deep. It was indeed their coming to Fangorn that brought the Ents in as unlikely allies, and was probably their major contribution to the War effort as a whole.
Yet it was most certainly not their only contribution. The slaying of the Witch-king through the joint efforts of Merry and Eowyn was no small matter. His loss upon the battlefield of the Pelennor sowed dismay among the Enemy, and made it even easier for the combined forces of Rohan, Gondor and the Grey Company to rout an enemy that still outnumbered them. And IMHO, Merry's blow was the more significant, as his barrow-blade served to break the spells that had protected the W-K all those hundreds of years. Had he not struck first, Eowyn's blow would have had no effect!
Pippin's contributions were of a different sort, yet no less important. Had he not taken advantage of the opportunities to manage his and Merry's escape, they would not have ended up in Fangorn in the first place! His taking the palantir was a foolish and unwise action on his part, and yet played an important role in causing Sauron to move too quickly, before he understood the true situation. It caused the Enemy to make several wrong assumptions (proving that the palantir was a two-edged tool in anyone's hands!) and enabling Gandalf and Aragorn to push their small advantage after the unexpected victory over Saruman. In addition, he was instrumental in making sure that Faramir survived the War, thus easing the way for Aragorn to become King. (Just think how suspicious the people of Gondor might have been if none of the Steward's family had survived!) It was not only Aragorn's healing hands and prowess as a warrior, but Faramir's easy acceptance of his lordship that helped the Gondorians accept him--for JRRT makes it plain that Faramir was beloved by the people. And of course, while not important to the overall course of Middle-earth, it was quite important to Beregond and his son that Pippin saved Beregond's life as well.
Without the contributions of Merry and Pippin, the War would have looked a good deal different, and not for the better! Between the four hobbits, they significantly served to turn the tide.
This is one reason that it's important that the last stroke of the War took place in the Shire, where the four heroes defended their own homeland successfully (and Frodo played his part in that, though he struck no blow)--it was indeed the "hour of the Shire-folk", and only fitting that they bring that hour to its close!
That quotation from Elrond, BTW, is one of my most favorite!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 29 2014, 1:52pm
Post #17 of 23
(2012 views)
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Thanks for mentioning the several instances where Merry and Pippin’s actions had an effect in the WotR, whereas I had chosen for the sake of brevity to concentrate on the Merry/Pippin- Ent/Huorn aspect. (BTW I have wondered how many Ents were involved at Helm’s Deep. I think very few (maybe a dozen or even less) as they perhaps would have thought the clean-up duty at Isengard of more import? Also I believe they were used simply as “shepherds” for the more “treeish” Huorns. Plus there is no record of any Hrum, Hoom’s at Helm’s Deep.
I also have wondered about the “death” of the Witch-king. Was Merry’s strike with his Elven-blade the more significant? Or as the Witch-king says, Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!. (There is also a reference to a foretelling by Glorfindel (which I can’t locate at the moment) that says no man will slay him.) Hmm, this seems to indicate that he may be slain by a woman. Would the W-K be slain by a lucky strike of Eowyn’s sword alone? Did Merry’s blow simply have the effect of throwing the W-Ks blow wide of the mark? Or did it really take the combination of the two – Merry & Eowyn?
I just love Frodo’s part in The Scouring of the Shire. Comparing his part here to the beginning of FotR, my how he had grown!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 2 2014, 5:37pm
Post #18 of 23
(1996 views)
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There is a difference, at least in street culture.
Sorry to take so long to respond, but I've had a very busy two weeks. But due to the hard work of my colleagues self and myself, the good citizens of our city can now drink poop water!
http://www.dallasnews.com/...reuse-wastewater.ece
(Er, yay?)
Anyway, in response to your flattering request: (Hope you won't be too disappointed!)
All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.
At length the Lady Galadriel released them from her eyes, and she smiled. `Do not let your hearts be troubled,' she said. 'Tonight you shall sleep in peace.' Then they sighed and felt suddenly weary, as those who have been questioned long and deeply, though no words had been spoken openly.
`Go now! ' said Celeborn. `You are worn with sorrow and much toil. Even if your Quest did not concern us closely, you should have refuge in this City, until you were healed and refreshed. Now you shall rest, and we will not speak of your further road for a while.'
Let us alone. Time driveth onward fast,
And in a little while our lips are dumb.
Let us alone. What is it that will last?
All things are taken from us, and become
Portions and parcels of the dreadful past.
Let us alone. What pleasure can we have
To war with evil? Is there any peace
In ever climbing up the climbing wave?
All things have rest, and ripen toward the grave
In silence—ripen, fall, and cease:
Give us long rest or death, dark death, or dreamful ease.
-The Lotos-Eaters, Alfred Tennyson (1832).
“Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life.”
So obviously Gandalf was bringing the ring to Lothlorien, and Galadriel, for a definite purpose. Perhaps for her to wield?
“I it was who first summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey, and then mayhap things would have gone otherwise.”
A little bitterness there. See what happens when the Wise don’t trust Galadriel? She was right then when everyone said she was wrong, so what about this ring thing?
"Yet hope remains while all the Company is true."
But is all the Company true? If not, then if not with Frodo, then who to turn to? (Three guesses and it ain't Celeborn.)
They had not seen the Lord and Lady again, and they had little speech with the Elven-folk; for few of these knew or would use the Westron tongue
A period of isolation is a common tactic in making prisoners amenable for when the captors eventually ask for something, such as, say, a ring.
"You're right," said Sam. "And don't think I'm finding fault. I've often wanted to see a bit of magic like what it tells of in old tales, but I've never heard of a better land than this. It's like being at home and on a holiday at the same time, if you understand me. I don't want to leave. All the same, I'm beginning to feel that if we've got to go on, then we'd best get it over.
"'It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish', as my old gaffer used to say. And I don't reckon that these folk can do much more to help us, magic or no. It's when we leave this land that we shall miss Gandalf worse, I'm thinking."
"I am afraid that's only too true, Sam," said Frodo. "Yet I hope very much that before we leave we shall see the Lady of the Elves again."
Even as he spoke, they saw, as if she came in answer to their words, the Lady Galadriel approaching.
Coincidence? I think not! (Sheesh! Are they always under observation? It's like they're prisoners or something!)
Anyway, does she appear because Frodo wants to see her again, or because Sam reminds Frodo that they should be going? If the latter, then it would seem she wants them to stay…
"Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal."
Recall earlier:
"She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with-with a bit of garden of my own."
When Sam looks into the mirror, he’ll get that chance.
Coincidence? I think not!
”Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom?”
Tricksey! Does she mean “doom” as in ruin and destruction, or “doom” as in destiny and fate?
Aragorn is “doomed” to be High King. Frodo is “doomed” to be the Ringbearer. Is Galadriel “doomed” to take the ring?
(Note that in most Northern European cultures, for someone to refuse their “wyrd” (fate, or doom) is considered a great transgression against their family, their ancestors, themselves, their gods, and everything. So even when someone doomed to be a mass murderer of cute little puppies belonging to orphaned nuns but then decides to go against his/her destiny to become a kindly school crossing guard for blind kindergartners it is considered a bad thing.)
So if Galadriel is meant to have the ring, who is she to deny her doom?
”Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his Ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?”
Well, that thing she did with the mirror definitely had Frodo shaking with fear. Force would be the next logical step.
"In the morning you must depart for now we have chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing."
“…we have chosen”. We know what Frodo has chosen. What has Galadriel chosen? To not take the ring.
“You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise.
Yep. Doubtless most of the wise believed, as you put it, that “she'd sometimes mused in that direction”. But, as Galadriel admitted, Frodo saw through that to her true thoughts.
Of course this is all IMHO and your mileage may differ.
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"We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
-Robert Wilensky
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 2 2014, 9:11pm
Post #19 of 23
(1979 views)
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Thanks Darkstone: I'll re-read with more of a sense of a real struggle that Galadriel might be facing.
Hard to say to what extent she was consciously preparing a grab: the hospitality in Lorien does strike one as a bit odd, but hard to be sure whether that's cultural differences in how to treat guests, or something more sinister.
I'm willing to believe that the Mirror scene has things more in the balance than I'd previously thought. Maybe it is crucial that Sam sees a compelling reason to want to go home, but after a wobble he holds true. And that Frodo sees the terrifying eye, but doesn't waver. For all I know Galadriel was capable of persuading Frodo to give up the Ring (as Gandalf persuades Bilbo). In which case, maybe it is the hobbits' courage and then guileless trust which shames her out of it.
Last time I read that section, I noticed that Galadriel seems a but different after that scene: either Frodo (whose point of view we are getting, I think) sees her differently, or she has resigned herself to dare. For now, whatever happens, Lorien must fail (because the Ring will likely either be destroyed, or be captured by the Enemy). A wrench certainty: Galadriel and Gimli's unexpected recognition of each other is based, I think, on the recognition of a common weakness for loving your own works too much.
I don't follow the idea that Gandalf would lead the Fellowship to Lorien intentionally for Galadriel to get the Ring, however: he seems all to aware of the dangers it poses to the wise, & I don't see what his motive would be. My reading is that he intended them to visit to get exactly the kind of help they do get - reprovisioning and so on. Of course, if Galadriel might be going to take the Ring, Gandalf might be unaware of the danger.
Gandalf's loss in Moria, I expect, only intensifies any temptation Galadrirl feels: the Fellowship arrives irresolute, and perhaps she wonders if it can succeed at all. Maybe it would be better to keep the Ring (only temporarily, of course...)
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"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 2 2014, 11:34pm
Post #20 of 23
(1977 views)
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“Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life.”
So obviously Gandalf was bringing the ring to Lothlorien, and Galadriel, for a definite purpose. Perhaps for her to wield? Lothlorien was obviously “on the way” and a great place for some aid and a rest stop. The purpose of the Quest was to destroy the Ring, not bring it to Lothlorien (as a stopping point), and not to give Galadriel a shot at it. To think that Gandalf and Galadriel were in cahoots does not register.
“I it was who first summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey, and then mayhap things would have gone otherwise.”
A little bitterness there. See what happens when the Wise don’t trust Galadriel? She was right then when everyone said she was wrong, so what about this ring thing? If we read this page and a page or two before this statement by Galadriel the company was talking about the loss of Gandalf and his intentions. Is she not talking of this in her statement? And I’m unaware of any mistrust of Galadriel by the Wise.
"Yet hope remains while all the Company is true."
But is all the Company true? If not, then if not with Frodo, then who to turn to? (Three guesses and it ain't Celeborn.) Had she already “read” the thinking of Boromir? I see no untoward thought of Galadriel here. Simply a word of caution.
They had not seen the Lord and Lady again, and they had little speech with the Elven-folk; for few of these knew or would use the Westron tongue
A period of isolation is a common tactic in making prisoners amenable for when the captors eventually ask for something, such as, say, a ring. Some may see this as isolation, prisoners, captors; I guess only brainwashing is missing. I see nothing mysteriously sinister in the sentence.
As for Sam and Frodo’s dialogue; Sam doesn’t remind Frodo that it’s time to leave; that wouldn’t be Sam’s way. He simply says, "It's when we leave this land that we shall miss Gandalf worse, I'm thinking."
And Galadriel’s approach during this dialogue is to me no more than two people having a chat while a third approaches. Need it be more complicated than that?
My thoughts are that Galadriel never had plans to take (by force) or accept (freely) The Ring, only as NoWizardme says she “mused in that direction”. Who wouldn’t? I suggest that most every person that knew of The Ring would ponder what he or she would do had they The Ring, but these would simply be ponderings, not intent of action.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 3 2014, 9:15pm
Post #21 of 23
(1960 views)
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Frodo is maybe a bit like this gentleman:
Starbuck was no crusader after perils; in him courage was not a sentiment; but a thing simply useful to him, and always at hand upon all mortal occasions. Besides, he thought, perhaps, that in this business of whaling, courage was one of the great staple outfits of the ship, like her beef and her bread, and not to be foolishly wasted.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Ch 26- Knights and Squires
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"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 3 2014, 10:19pm
Post #22 of 23
(1954 views)
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And was it not Starbuck who, after the death of Ahab, hollered something like, “Onward mates! Are we whalin’ men or no?”
And Moby Dick is one of the few novels that most can at least paraphrase the first and last lines.
”Call me Ishmael.”
and the end, ”And I, I alone, have survived to tell thee.”
And sooo many memorable quotes in between!
I may be recalling the movie with Gregory Peck, as it’s been years since I’ve read the novel.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 7 2014, 8:24pm
Post #23 of 23
(1960 views)
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Of course the most ominous sentence....
[In reply to]
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"Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting."
Which begs the most disturbing question: What would have Galadriel done if Frodo had failed that test?
******************************************
"We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
-Robert Wilensky
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