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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 27 2014, 12:35pm
Post #26 of 43
(284 views)
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my boss is glaring at me, so back to work. But great thoughts! Will reply later.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 27 2014, 8:00pm
Post #27 of 43
(278 views)
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The hidden meaning of this story is that Hurin's family is a curse on poor Beleg and Mablung. The latter gets in some choice quotes:
Then Mablung said to his company: ‘Truly, it is by lack of counsel not of courage that Húrin’s kin bring woe to others! Even so with Túrin; yet not so with his fathers. But now they are all fey, and I like it not. More do I dread this errand of the King than the hunting of the Wolf. What is to be done?’ Then Mablung cried: ‘Fey are you both, and foolhardy. You help not but hinder any gathering of news.
Glaurung: He seems much more cunning than Smaug, and more evil. Smaug's desires were simpler: eat, guard his gold, sleep, and not be killed. Glaurung is a brooding malice, like a robot programmed to tirelessly spread unhappiness in Beleriand. I would very much like to see him come up against Melian. That would be an epic battle of some kind, I think. Or it would be satisfying to see him and all of his deceitful ways get trapped in her enchantments that deceive evil in return.
The fact that he's sitting in his entrance, brooding and looking for enemies, does make me wonder who he's looking out for? Beleriand has been basically emptied of Morgoth's enemies, with Gondolin hidden and Doriath fenced off. Who was going to disturb him? I think he wasn't afraid of Turin coming back but instead was so intent on causing harm to others that he was like a spider in a web, waiting for a victim to come along, and with that super-sight, he could see a victim from a long way off.
It strikes me also how he was drained of power upon his return to his hole. Did his power go into making that magic steam that was more than steam and drove horses mad and spread confusion? I think it was more than just an accidental dragon burp and was something he put himself into. But I suspect the bulk of his power went into conquering Nienor's mind. Even though he had the greater power and this was no Sauron-Finrod sing-off match of near equals, he had to exert himself in a big way. Tolkien seems to give characters indomitable minds. Morgoth could curse Hurin, but he couldn't pull a simpler trick of just reading his mind and getting all the information on Gondolin that he really wanted. Instead he had to resort to a convoluted curse. For Glaurung to break Nienor's mind (and Morwen's, either by intent or by side effect), must have been a big drain.
Nienor seems naive in her defiance of Glaurung, a naivete combined with pride. I find that more appealing than Morwen's vanity + pride combo. It says a lot that Nienor lost her mind in this story, when she was the only one in the family who had the sense to keep things together. She took after Hurin whereas Turin followed mama, though that's not all that unusual for traits to skip genders in a family.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 27 2014, 8:22pm
Post #28 of 43
(272 views)
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morwen is such a piece of work that i wonder if she was wrought by feanor himself.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 27 2014, 11:51pm
Post #29 of 43
(265 views)
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Love your idea of putting Morwen on an "Ignore" list, CG. I think Morwen and Turin both, in their selfishness, show that neither of them truly gave a damn for anyone affected by their actions. Perhaps that's too harsh a conclusion, but I think there is a lack of greater consideration for their fellow Man/Elf/spider-eating monkey. Mablung and Beleg--individuals whose top quality, arguably, is loyalty--are mirror images Morwen and Turin in a sense. Could you ever imagine Turin spending three years of his life searching for someone out of pure sympathy, and no romance/family ties involved?
(Side note on Mablung: Each time he comes up in the story, I have a momentary lapse in concentration and assume he's one of the Edain. Perhaps it's the name--Mablung doesn't seem as Elvish to me when reading it.)
Poor Nienor, indeed! I almost wish Thingol would have held her back somehow. That's a big 'what if?' to ponder, though.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 28 2014, 2:59am
Post #30 of 43
(264 views)
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How many spawn of Ungoliant were there?
Did this certain spawn of Ungoliant have wings?
Was the dragon a proper dragon, wyvern, or other dragon-esque form?
Did the dragon have wings?
How do you cook dragon? Do you boil 'em? Mash em'? Are they good in a stew? Or do you eat them whole? Skin them? Or just squash them into jelly?
Which meal did you eat them for? Breakfast? Second Breakfast? Elevensies? Lunch? Afternoon tea? Supper? Dinner? Did any food spill over?
Oh, we need answers!!!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 28 2014, 5:38am
Post #31 of 43
(260 views)
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Mmm...dragon jelly. Does one eat that with Balrog wings at the local Balrog Wild Wings, I wonder?
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 28 2014, 3:04pm
Post #32 of 43
(257 views)
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Rem Rem, my husband says that this post is filled with a certain amount of genius, unprecedented. It was very funny!
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 28 2014, 3:59pm
Post #33 of 43
(248 views)
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Morwen's emotional hostages...her kids.
[In reply to]
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Your post got me to thinking about Morwen and her treatment of others amidst her despair. If you remember when Lalaith died Morwen despaired to the point that she did not allow any joy around her. She projected that hopelessness and misery onto everything and everyone around her, especially her young son. Do you remember she would not even allow Turin to talk about her or say her name? I understand a mother's grief, however she takes it to a whole new level. For Morwen, life definitely does not go on and she is going to make certain that those around her do not feel joy when she is not capable of it. Seems a harsh thing to put on a child.
What I find interesting is that now she is doing the very same thing in regards to Nienor and Turin. She is now despairing over Turin and Nienor is paying for it. She has a talent for taking emotional hostages during her misery. The emotional hostages tend to be those that she loves. I would find it much easier to forgive Morwen's reaction if we did not see a pattern of it. She takes her grief and holds on so tight, with no concern over who she leaves in her wake. She is a slave to her grief and makes certain that others are too.
I kinda think that Melian would be one of the last people who would be able to talk sense into Morwen. Melian suffered her own grief with her own daughter and handled it with a grace and dignity that Morwen would never be able to comprehend. I believe that Morwen interprets Thingol and Melian during this time as possibility patronizing. Morwen is a loose cannon and any counsel of restraint during these bi-polar periods of Morwen, I believe she would resent. Perhaps she equates her near hysteria in these periods as a reflection of love.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 4:09pm
Post #34 of 43
(247 views)
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[ cg ]
Not only does she accuse Thingol of taking poor care of Turin, but she rashly (and rudely) complains that she's a prisoner when in fact she's been an honored guest. Is Morwen's reaction justifiable as a mother, or is she out of line?
[ / cg ]
+so+ out of line. with morwen, like turin, we have to wonder... how much is her, and how much is this the curse? the curse perhaps ramps up one's worst qualities, or perhaps puts one's qualities in imbalance (stubbornness can be an asset, in certain cases... but if it always rules, it's probably not an asset).
curse aside, morwen strikes me as a near-narcissistic mother. my lands! drama! my son! insult the king who has fostered him like his own son! i'll go after him myself!
[ cg ]
In case we thought one woman could talk sense into another, Melian has no more luck than Thingol does. That sets up Nienor's failure to prevail over Morwen also. Is this fate driving Morwen to excess pride and foolishness, or simply her personality? What if Hurin had told her to stay at home--would she have listened? As someone who's never lived in the wild, fought a battle, etc, what exactly did she think she'd accomplish by chasing after Turin in enemy territory?
[ / cg ]
again, it's all about morwen. poor impulse control, the world revolves around her. nevermind that she could have averted a lot of this (perhaps) by just agreeing to go to doriath when thingol and melian +repeatedly+ sent out envoys (at great risk to the envoys -- the last batch lost their lives, it seems). me! me! me! drama! drama! drama!
[ cg ]
What do you make of Morwen's speech with Nienor:
Quote
"Now Morwen went to Niënor, and said: ‘Farewell, daughter of Húrin. I go to seek my son, or true tidings of him, since none here will do aught, but tarry till too late."
She doesn't call her "my daughter" nor say that she's going to seek "your brother." She could just as well be talking to the family maid. Is this how royals talk, or does she seem remarkably distant and detached?
[ / cg ]
very morwen. as cuddly as an icicle. he children are props, more than real beings with needs.
never really liked morwen... am coming to not being able to stand her.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 4:13pm
Post #35 of 43
(245 views)
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you make +great+ points, mikah. what you state about morwen's forbidding of turin to speak lailath's name, and then treating nienor like she did turin.... such a pattern.
morwen the narcissist. configure events so that others have to dance around the smallest quivering of her moods.
+always+ ready to feel wronged and to notice slights. makes those who she feels have slighted her walk over hot coals for forgiveness, which she never quite provides.
faugh! morwen the narcissist!
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 28 2014, 4:14pm)
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 28 2014, 4:27pm
Post #36 of 43
(249 views)
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All Aboard! Morwen's freight train to doom!
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You are right Brethil. This is an instance where Nienor really is not left with a choice, is she? A very thinly veiled "I am the only one who cares about Turin, so I must do it myself (wink, wink)." It is hard to mistake the underlying tone of "if you cared, you would come too." Nienor really is left in a no win situation here. I feel bad for her. I rather like Nienor as well. I wonder how she managed to escape Morwen's rashness that was definitely passed down to Turin?
I believe that we are at the part of the story where there is no turning back. With Morwen leaving Doriath she has just boarded the runaway freight train to disaster and brought her daughter and Mablung along for the ride. Mablung knows this and Nienor senses it. But what can they really do at this point but see it though? They incorporate as much damage control as possible, but there is no way this is going to end well. Morgoth and the curse has them exactly where he wants them...outside of any sort of protection. In a way, she has just handed Morgoth the ammunition he needs. Now they have a dragon to contend with.
I am not certain that Glaurung has the foresight to see how all of this will play out, either but he certainly must know that it is not going to end well for them. Is there a possibility that Mablung is still alive because Glaurung holds him of little account here? I get the feeling that the dragon is sent to make sure that the curse is fulfilled on Hurin's family. Any misery cast upon Doriath and Mablung would just be gravy, but not necessary at this point to fulfill Morgoth's objective.
(This post was edited by Mikah on Jun 28 2014, 4:30pm)
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 28 2014, 4:38pm
Post #37 of 43
(239 views)
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As I was writing the post I was wondering to myself if Morwen has a case of Borderline or Narcissistic personality disorder. Lol, I do believe that you have diagnosed her...narcissist she is! For me it is kind of horrifying how much worse, yes I said worse, Turin would have turned out had he been completely raised by her.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 4:55pm
Post #38 of 43
(236 views)
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[ cg ]
I plainly disapprove of Morwen, but Nienor impresses me. She wants to honor their hosts and restrain her mother's impetuousness, while remaining brave and sensible. She's got the Hurinite stubbornness, but wishy-washy people don't make great tragic heroes. Given that she has more sense than Morwen, why does she go along with her after failing to persuade her to go home?
Mablung impresses me as the suffering hero in this part of the story, taking up where Beleg left off, the dutiful soldier doing his duty, and brave to the extreme (I'd love to see a movie snippet of "The Adventures of Mablung in Nargothrond." That's a story that fires the imagination.).
Why do you suppose Glaurung didn't kill Mablung or any of the others? What did he expect to gain by wiping Nienor's memory? Did he have any foresight that she'd wind up in Brethil? Didn't he risk that she'd run off into the wild like Morwen and never be seen again for years, effectively falling outside the curse and the story?
Another reason to join the Mablung fan club:
Quote
"Nonetheless Mablung would not rest, and with a small company he went into the wild and for three years wandered far, from Ered Wethrin even to the Mouths of Sirion, seeking for sign or tidings of the lost."
If Mablung did all this searching, why did he never come across Turin and the remnants of Haleth's people, to seek for news, at the very least?
[ /cg ]
i, also, like nienor. she is the true child of hurin, and the true heir to the house of beor.
i think she went off with (self-centered) morwen because that's the last close family she has. and morwen also pulls on her sense of duty.
and what a mind-game! morwen practically chastises nienor in front of all about how only morwen cares enough to go after turin, but then when she discovers nienor has tagged along, it's' more drama! go back! i am your mother! i command you! why did you come?! you must obey me, i am the mother!
faugh.
i rather like the image of nienor clad in elven ranger-garb. so cool! i wish she had had a longer life, under her own mind. she is made of the same stuff as idril, galadriel, and eowyn.
i think glaurung has a +sense+ of things that might happen. possibilities. which is why it's more fun to wipe nienor's mind, rather than kill her outright. playing with his food. the meal doesn't taste as sweet without the suffering. an inveterate sadist.
leaving mablung alive is a bit of an insult, but also vindictive (in glaurung's mind). mablung can have all his elf years to think about his failure. also, mablung can deliver word of that failure to king thingol, who long-protected turin, morwen, and nienor. a price must be paid for +that+, and it's hard to pay that debt when thingol and melian are secure in doriath. so mablung can carry the news back to doriath, and it will pain the hearts of thingol and melain, wound them in a way that it is not possible to otherwise, having no way to penetrate doriath.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 28 2014, 10:13pm
Post #39 of 43
(229 views)
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Go for the trifecta of sinus, throat, and ear infection more often! I seem to be much more creative.
Nah....I'm not liking these antibiotics too much...
Say thanks for me, okay?
Really I didn't think it was too original, but I'm really my own worst critic, so no surprises there. I'm glad to hear that someone got such enjoyment from it!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 10:31pm
Post #40 of 43
(225 views)
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smaug is a pestilence. glaurung is +evil+.
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smaug is a pestilence. glaurung is +evil+.
or maybe smaug is just lazy.
glaurung certainly seems extremely mindful of morgoth's agenda. perhaps if smaug were around at that time and we knew of his activities, we've view him similarly.
smaug in the third age is a free agent. glaurung has a boss. just like curiousg. and morgoth might be glaring at him from across the plains.
i think it would be fun to see melain against any formidable opponent. i have faith in her skills.
love your description of his match with nienor, cg. no, she wasn't his psychic equal, but her will matched his and her courage was probably greater (i don't much think of glaurung as brave at all). perhaps the dragon-mind powers require some special dragon calories.
i'm still stumped as to how a dragon can gather up tiny bits of treasure when it's so freaking huge and it doesn't have opposeable digits (which are capped with claws, huge, and wouldn't be much use anyway).
you know what i'd love to see? glaurung vs. morwen. my money's on morwen. she'd upbraid him, demand that he bear her on his back while she looked for turin all around beleriand.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 28 2014, 10:40pm
Post #41 of 43
(219 views)
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In the first few chapters, I get the sense that Morwen is a wise and calculating planner, fit to counsel and be respected by Hurin. By this time, however, It would seem that her wisdom has been exchanged for folly and madness. Is she having a breakdown? If so, what was the cause of this fall? I'd say it had to happen sometime after Turin left. Maybe his absence and the rigours of life in Dor-Lomin broke her will? Was this why Melian wanted her to come to Doriath earlier? This Morwen is very much different from the one I saw in the early chapters. (Really!? She was counting the company of Elves who came with her? Really!?)
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 10:44pm
Post #42 of 43
(219 views)
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yeah, that stuck out at me, too. if the number was something like, say, six elves... i could see her noticing. noticing a 31st elf is a little ocd (or perhaps reveals the author's hand).
i think you make an interesting point about the morwen of the early chapters. i will have to skim and think upon this (however, i was never really impressed with her).
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 28 2014, 10:45pm
Post #43 of 43
(260 views)
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That is an interesting contrast here. IIRC, in the Sil discussion, there seemed to be a consensus that Glaurung was a bit of a rebel, defying Morgoth and revealing himself too early. I'm starting to re-think that....
What really did Glaurung do afterwards that might be contra-Morgoth? Was he dispatched on a mission to mess up Hurin's family, or just invade Elven kingdoms? Was he really being disobedient by hoarding the treasure, refusing to withdraw from Nargothrond? OTOH, what else might he have done? Morgoth is pretty content to let his orcs range. I am beginning to see Glaurubng as a very dangerous power--one capable of plotting on a level with Morgoth.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Yes!!!
[
