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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 23 2014, 10:34pm
Post #1 of 17
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What did Sauron actually know about Gandalf´s plan in every stage of the fellowship mission?
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Okay that bothered me some times. Bbecause reading the book I hadn´t a clear idea of what Sauron should now about Frodo and Sam and the felloship
This is hard to explain because movie neither expain that to me in a neat and clear way
I mean
Hhe saw Frodo with the ring putted on?
After that the witch king saw him too with the ring on and whats more after being defeated in the river they go back to Mordor so incase Sauron didn´t see Frodo the second time the witch king could have told to Sauron himself
Well Frodo puts the ring on at parth-galen, so Sauron has an idea that the ring is movin south and that a halfling is always taking it
Then he saws pippin in the palantir but after having seen frodo at least three times he has to know that pippin was not the hobbit he was looking for
and then he gets the mithril shirt, well that would have been significant to suspect an attempt from the hobbits taking the ring to mordor
I know in the book the hability of Sauron in order to locate the ring bearer in an exact poin in space is limited but in the movies seems so clear
So I dont know, I dont know the way things worked on the baddies side neither in the books or in the films can anyone clarify this?
Thanks
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
(This post was edited by Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) on Jun 23 2014, 10:37pm)
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Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 24 2014, 2:49am
Post #2 of 17
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The inner logic of the movies was highly erratic...
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Which is why we usually don't discuss the films in the Reading Room. I remember watching the Two Towers and seeing Frodo trying to hand the Ring to the WitchKing at Osgiliath. I laughed out loud. The film should've ended right there. No way Frodo should have ever escaped that tower.
Dreadful storytelling. Inconsistent, and occasionally plain dumb. Read the books.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Jun 24 2014, 2:50am)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jun 24 2014, 7:22am
Post #3 of 17
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The movies changed some things, making it seem like Sauron could clearly see the wearer of the Ring whenever he put it on, and that the Nazgul were drawn to it like a magnet at all times, but that's not how it is in the book. In the book....
Sauron knows (from capturing and torturing Gollum) that the Ring was found by "Baggins" who comes from "the Shire". He sends the Nine to go find the land of the Shire and locate Baggins there.
Whatever Sauron can sense of Frodo when he puts on the Ring, it seems that it's adversely affected by distance. So Sauron can't "see" Frodo in the sense of having a clear idea of exactly what he looks like or where he is. Nor, in the book, do the Nine "home in" on the Ring in the way they do in the movies. They track him by sniffing for him. I assume they picked up his scent at Bag End (where they arrived after he left) and followed him from there.
On Weathertop, the Nine can see Frodo when he puts on the Ring, because he is then sharing their plane of existence. They also can presumably see him more and more clearly as the Morgul blade does its work and he begins to "fade" on the way to Rivendell. But they are swept away down the Bruinen, and apparently have to make their way back to Mordor in their "disembodied" state. The next we see of them, they are riding Fell Beasts.
At this point, from information received from the Nine, Sauron would know that Baggins and the Ring had reached Rivendell, so that Elrond and the Elves would be aware of it. Sauron would also know what Saruman knows, via the Palantir. At this point, it would be confirmation that the One had been found and that Gandalf was involved - but that he'd escaped from Isengard.
The Watcher, Orcs, and Balrog of Moria may have been drawn to the power of the One, but they weren't in direct communication with Sauron either. However, it's possible, even likely, that the orcs who came out of Moria to chase the Fellowship into Lorien might have met with either Orcs of Isengard or Mordor and so Sauron would learn that the Ring had arrived in Lothlorien. Even if the orcs didn't hear it, the Nazgul are out doing air surveillance and other errand; Legolas shoots at one one night on the river, taking down the Fell Beast he's riding.
From Lorien, the Fellowship goes south along the River (tracked by orcs on the riverbanks, Nazgul in the air, and followed by Gollum). Because the wearer of the Ring cannot will to hurt it, and because Sauron assumes that others will do what he would do - that is, use the Ring to destroy their enemies, Sauron assumes that they are taking the Ring to Gondor, where they will use it to fight him.
Frodo has a close call at being located and identified on Amon Hen, where the Seat of Seeing heightened his ability to see - and be seen. It was only Gandalf's intervention, telling Frodo to "take off the Ring" that saved him from being pinpointed by the Eye of Sauron there. However, he did escape it - and when the orcs attack, he is not seen by them at all. He and Sam leave, and the orcs capture the other hobbits. They haven't been told why they're wanted, so they don't know that they haven't found "Baggins", and they have no idea about a ring. Although Frodo, Sam, and Gollum see a Nazgul fly over while they're crossing the Marshes, it doesn't see them.
The next information Sauron gets is when Pippin looks in the Palantir. At first, Sauron assumes it's Saruman, who hasn't reported in lately (because he's been busy being beseiged by Ents), but then he asks 'Who are you?" and Pippin says he's a hobbit. Sauron, assuming that Saruman has forced Pippin to look in the Palantir, tells him to tell Saruman that "this dainty is not for him" and says he'll send for it at once. But he just assumes this is the hobbit who holds the Ring, and he doesn't bother to confirm that it's Baggins. The Nazgul that they hear passing over later that night was sent earlier, according to Gandalf, to find out what Saruman was up to. Gandalf says that Sauron would assume Saruman, who does not have either the Palantir or the hobbit at that point, has turned traitor and is trying to keep the hobbit for himself. (He'll change his mind later because of Aragorn)
When Frodo is captured at Cirith Ungol, Sam takes the Ring. So, although the orcs take his mithril mail and know that Sauron wants him sent to Barad-dur, they don't know about the Ring. And they (and Sauron) assume that Frodo is some sort of spy sent by the Elves or Men.
When Aragorn looks into the Palantir and reveals himself and Anduril to Sauron, Sauron assumes that it's the Heir of Isildur who is now returning to Gondor along with the hobbit and the Ring, and he hurries to send his armies to attack before Aragorn can establish his power base. This means that Gondor sends the Red Arrow and lights the beacons, Aragorn has to hurry, taking the Paths of the Dead, and the armies on the Plains of Gorgoroth march toward the Black Gates, at first taking Frodo and Sam with them, and then clearing the way for their last push to Mount Doom.
When the Mouth of Sauron uses the mithril mail to taunt the Captains of the West at the Black Gate, he just assumes he's spoiled their military plan (perhaps a plan to sneak someone in behind the Gate to give information, or to try to open it), but it's a bluff, because he's lost Frodo and never knew about Sam - the orcs in the tower assumed he was an Elf warrior. And he still thinks that Aragorn's courage in attacking him is because he's got the Ring and he's overconfident.
Only when Frodo puts on the Ring at the Cracks of Doom and claims it for himself does Sauron realize that the Ring was in his own backyard, and not in the hands of the Gondorian forces. He can finally see Frodo and where he is and he sends the Nazgul to try to capture him before he can learn to really use the Ring, but he's too late because Gollum attacks and the Ring is destroyed before they get there. Sauron never understood Gandalf's plan until that moment when Frodo reached the Cracks of Doom.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Jun 24 2014, 7:25am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 24 2014, 9:20am
Post #4 of 17
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~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 24 2014, 10:19am
Post #5 of 17
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THanks for that big and tasty answer
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jun 24 2014, 8:26pm
Post #7 of 17
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Yes, there was a "stranger" who questioned the Gaffer at dusk at the corner of Bagshot Row, which is very close to Bag End. The Gaffer tells the stranger the general direction he thinks Frodo went and that he's already left. The first Black Rider is seen on the road sniffing for the travelers the next evening. And as the Black Riders track them to Crickhollow, we see them doing more sniffing, as for instance at the Ferry.
It's not stated in the text, but it's my assumption that they picked up the scent by returning to Bag End after dark the evening that they talked to the Gaffer, since general hobbit scent wouldn't help them, and they seem to know exactly who they're looking for along the way. If they are not searching specifically for Frodo's scent, then they are somehow able to smell the Ring itself. I suppose you can choose the option you like.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Kim
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 3:14am
Post #8 of 17
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Thanks for this detailed answer
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to a very interesting question. Very helpful to have it all spelled out clearly in once place.
"Jagatud rőőm on topelt rőőm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2014, 4:04am
Post #9 of 17
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Doesn´t your assumption that the black riders went to Bag End at night make things creepier?
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To think that after the destruction of the ring Frodo lived there for at least four years and that every time it was the aniversary of the attack at weathertop he felt ill as if somehow the presence of the ringwraiths remained there in the house, not only in Frodo´s wound...ugh
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
(This post was edited by Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) on Jun 25 2014, 4:07am)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jun 25 2014, 4:52am
Post #10 of 17
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But the Black Riders in the book are endlessly creepy. It's one of the things I would have done differently had I been making the movies; I find the account of being tracked over a period of days by mysterious riders sniffing for you, breaking into your house in the dead of night and then surrounding you in the wild far scarier than the chase scenes we got. Between the Black Riders, Old Man Willow, and the Barrow-wights, much of the first section of the book reads like a suspense/horror story.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2014, 5:28am
Post #11 of 17
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Yeah few days back I was discussing this, it´s my favourite part of the books
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Because of that sense of the quiet enemy in your day a day life, and actually until Weathertop the blackriders are rumors, shadows, sometimes they see them but are not completely a fierce menace going destroying all in their path like the Balrog would do
I wish the movies could had capture that part of the journey without shortcuts
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 6:06am
Post #12 of 17
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Every time I'm reminded of the book-Nagzul I get a shiver down my back. Reading your post did it quite well.  
This reminds me of the more general theme I see in the books, mostly FOTR but occasionally in the other two: the paranoia of being followed. If I had the time, I'd write a TAS piece on all of the instances members of the Fellowship look behind them and see (or think they see, or aren't sure if they see) something/someone behind them (usually eyes...*shivers*). Most of the time it's either the Nazgul or Gollum, but in the Wild there are other possibilities.
*turns on light in dark basement* Now look what you've done. 
(This post was edited by cats16 on Jun 25 2014, 6:07am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 12:00pm
Post #13 of 17
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most agreed, silverlode... i find the journey from bagend to crickhollow, through the old forest, the barrow downs until the fords the most relentlessly creepy portion of the tale. the most terror-ful (if we define terror as being severely scared of what we can't see and don't know, and horror as revulsion from what we +do+ see, which may also be accompanied by deep fear). btw, those definitions of terror vs. horror are not mine; there's a lovely documentary on the producer / writer val lewton (who is largely responsible for dark classics like the original cat people, i walked with a zombie, the body snatcher, etc.). this documentary is narrated by martin scorsese, who quotes someone re these definitions. btw, "i walked with a zombie" might be a ridiculously purpled title, but the film is excellent, relentlessly atmospheric and creepy.
i also concur that that part of the journey was far more suspenseful as crafted by tolkien than adapted by jackson. i wish jackson filmed the extended scenes, and saved them for the ee, as i know he wanted to tighten things up for the theatrical release. it's a shame, because this sort of terror is essential to this fear of the shadow.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 25 2014, 12:04pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 12:55pm
Post #14 of 17
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Great point, Cats. You made me think of the creepy beginning of the journey into Mirkwood, where Bilbo & Dwarves are surrounded by watching eyes at night, whether they light a fire or not. No chase scenes (imagine that!) and no attacks, just this creepy sense of being watched, which makes you wonder if the animals were hungry and contemplating a meal or curious or both or something else.
There's that sense of being watched in Hollin by unseen spies, and watched by trees without eyes in the Old Forest, and watched or sensed by whatever malice is in Minas Morgul as they head up the Stairs. All so creepy! I think Gollum following them in Moria had the most classic horror story feel for me on first read, and yet he never actually did anything to them. Or that would tie with the pursuit by the mostly unknown/unseen Nazgul across the Shire for scariness.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 5:51pm
Post #15 of 17
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I no longer sniff at sniffing Black Riders
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In fact the sniffing is a brilliant device:
It's weird (even Pippin finds it "unsettling")
It's bestial
Tracking Frodo by smell means the Riders know Frodo's near (or has been recently) but it's not as precise as sight, so they have to cast around creepily for him.
I wonder whether the scent they are after is Frodo's or the Ring's ( I kinda like it being the Ring's, myself).
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2014, 5:55pm
Post #16 of 17
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Yeah the scent of the ring its a pretty fine guess
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But I wonder that with the habilities they have in the movies the chase after Frodo would have suceeded
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jun 28 2014, 2:26am
Post #17 of 17
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I was just rereading this bit...
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looking for the sections I wanted to quote for the "scary scenes" thread above, and I came across this bit which is of interest in this question.
"Can the Riders see?" asked Merry. "I mean, they seem usually to have used their noses rather than their eyes, smelling for us, if smelling is the right word, at least in the daylight. But you made us lie down flat when you saw them down below; and now you talk of being seen, if we move."
"I was too careless on the hilltop," answered Strider. "I was very anxious to find some sign of Gandalf; but it was a mistake for three of us to go up and stand there so long. For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also," he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, "the Ring draws them."
So it seems the answer is that they smell the blood of the hobbits, but also somehow feel their presence and that of the Ring.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Great reply! //
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