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Thoughts upon reading Children of Hurin, in a time of Game of Thrones popularity

Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea


Jun 22 2014, 3:41pm

Post #1 of 12 (623 views)
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Thoughts upon reading Children of Hurin, in a time of Game of Thrones popularity Can't Post

I have finally read CoH last night--started and finished on the same day, woohoo! I'd been meaning to for years and finally got around to it.

It just so happens that I read it during a time when I am finding Game of Thrones references everywhere. "You know nothing, Jon Snow" has become a frequent meme, to the extent where I'm starting to think of adding "...Jon Snow" after any and every criticism or insult to anyone.

So, as I read it, I couldn't help thinking of what I was reading as something that might be worth adapting for the screen, and how well received such an adaptation might be (legal obstacles, which seem preclusive into the indefinitely foreseeable future, aside.)

My first reaction upon finishing CoH: it might be a miserable downer, but I loved loved loved it, more than I even thought I would actually, even as a Tolkien book fan already. I had been familiar with the story from the Sil and from Unfinished Tales, but I thought it worked beautifully as a complete, standalone novel.

I was quite pleasantly surprised by how (1) it was less than 300 pages long (I don't know why, I was expecting something longer), and (2) the writing style didn't feel anywhere nearly as long-winded as I had expected. I love Tolkien as my favorite author, but brevity / terseness of writing style has not been his forte. But I didn't find that a problem in CoH. There were vivid descriptions of characters and places but it never felt overboard--if anything, I thought it could have been expouded upon in greater depth at times, but I'm glad it wasn't. I wonder if that is a credit to the Professor's evolving (?) writing style, or Christopher's editing (the latter seems more likely to me, as I seem to recall reading that the Professor started writing this before starting TH).

I digress though. The main thought I wanted to post about was that Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire seems to descend more from this work, than from any other Tolkien work, even from other stories within the Sil (the Kinslaying-related parts of Quenta Sil come close).

And I wonder if, in this time of GoT TV series popularity and GoT meme prevalence, it might be the right time for an adaptation of CoH? (again, legal preclusions aside for discussion purposes.)

In contrast to the bleak, despairing, incest-laden, arguably amoral works of GRRMartin, Tolkien's works might appear to be more hopeful, perhaps more innocent, generally reflective of a mostly black-and-white morality found in the widely-exposed adaptations of Tolkien's works. But an adaptation of CoH would show a new side to Tolkien's legendarium world, one that is just as bleak, despairing, incest-laden (if not amoral), something for which the public may be ready thanks to GoT now, if not before.

Thoughts?

Things overheard during games of chess in Middle-earth:

Galadriel (any and every time she advances her pawn to the last row): "In its place you would have a QUEEN!!!!" (thunder booms)

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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Jun 22 2014, 4:05pm

Post #2 of 12 (474 views)
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I think it is a brilliant idea [In reply to] Can't Post

I have said for a long time now that this story would make an especially fascinating movie. I really agree that fans of GOT would eat it up. Lets hope that the rights to this get sold soon. Or are they already licensed to be sold?


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 22 2014, 4:17pm

Post #3 of 12 (464 views)
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nothing beyond [In reply to] Can't Post

 
nothing beyond the hobbit and the lord of the rings (and whatever is contained in its appendices) has been licensed.

christopher tolkien, the administrator of his father's estate, has been repeatedly and vehemently opposed to further adaptations, as he has not been impressed with what has been produced, and has been appalled at the merchandising.

he is in his 80s, and when he passes on, he will leave his custodial duties to someone else (likely someone in his family). is is more likely to leave those rights to someone who shares his vision, than to someone who would allow the silmarilion or children of hurin adapted for the screen, small or large.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Jun 22 2014, 4:35pm

Post #4 of 12 (446 views)
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But we can hope that the next generation of Tolkien's descendants [In reply to] Can't Post

Will hopefully be more opened minded and willing to take a chance on these enterprises.


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 22 2014, 6:52pm

Post #5 of 12 (445 views)
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It is not really about who follows CT as the guardian of the estate, I think. [In reply to] Can't Post


Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988


[..]


Duration of copyright

The 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act states the duration of copyright as;
  1. For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
    70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies.
    If the author is unknown, copyright will last for 70 years from end of the calendar year in which the work was created, although if it is made available to the public during that time, (by publication, authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.), then the duration will be 70 years from the end of the year that the work was first made available.



[..]



In general, however, I agree with you that an adaption of "The Children of Hurin" could be really phenomenal.

I - as a matter of fact - hope for a new motion picture series "The War of the Jewels" focusing in three to four parts on "Beren and Luthien", "The Children of Hurin", "The Fall of Gondolin" and "The War of Wrath".

Not sure about a series although this is a popular demand at the moment due to GoT.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 22 2014, 6:58pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 22 2014, 6:55pm

Post #6 of 12 (436 views)
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copyrights can be renewed [In reply to] Can't Post

 
to my knowledge, copyrights can be renewed.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 22 2014, 6:59pm

Post #7 of 12 (432 views)
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Ah, okay. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 22 2014, 7:00pm

Post #8 of 12 (429 views)
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i don't claim complete knowledge... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... i just know in some cases they can be renewed. i don't know under what stipulations this may occur, or the likelihood of copyright renewal when christopher passes on.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 22 2014, 7:09pm

Post #9 of 12 (423 views)
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Not sure that it is too easy... [In reply to] Can't Post

... since the purpose to have a restricted time on copyrights is and was to open published works sooner or later to the public domain. That attempt would not be very futile if authors had the possibility to pass on the rights to a new generation (therefore extending the copyright for potentially 100 years and more).

I know there is an option in the USA to double the time... but I think the time span there is shorter by far anyway - less than 30 years, I think.

But I am also not an expert at all, certainly not claiming complete knowledge here as well.


PS: There was a huge debate in Germany (and it continues, though calmer) about the end of copyrights because the copyrights for Hitler's book "Mein Kampf" end on December 31 2015. They at least are not able to extent it and I believe these rules have been unified in the EU - would therefore also apply to the UK.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 22 2014, 7:17pm)


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jun 22 2014, 7:28pm

Post #10 of 12 (431 views)
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The portrayal of Morgoth.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Would be the biggest problem in a screen (big or small) adaptation of the CoH. Unlike LOTR, where Sauron is basically in the background, Morgoth does take an active role at the beginning of CoH. Also, unlike Sauron, Morgoth is a god and the most powerful being in all of Arda. I could see Sauron being portrayed in, say, Akallabeth as Annatar, because Sauron is a Maiar and of the same order as Gandalf, Radagast and Sauruman. If you could portray the latter three, you can portray Sauron in the Second Age, whether he is in Numenor or trying to deceive the Elves of Eregion.


However, Morgoth is of another magnitude. How do you portray him? One way would be to eliminate the scenes in which Morgoth curses Hurin, and instead use exposition to set up the curse that is laid on Turin without images of Morgoth. I always thought it would be difficult to portray the gods, which is the case in all mythology (for instance in Clash of the Titans). This would be an even bigger problem in the Lay of Lethian, because the climax of this story is when Luthien enchants Morgoth and puts him and his entire court into a spell-inducing sleep.


If Morgoth is removed or somehow the Curse is shown in a way that obfuscates Morgoth, it might work. I'm sure that might be devices that could be used to get the idea that Morgoth cursed Hurin across without a direct image of the Bauglir. If that part can be handled, the rest of the CoH could be done in a similar way as GoT....


The next question: Should it be done for mature audiences or for general audiences? Part of GoTs appeal on HBO is that it is for mature audiences. CoH can be done in a similar way given the violence and other taboo topics, such as incest. Would Tolkien fans accept an R-rated version of one of his tales?


squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2014, 7:54pm

Post #11 of 12 (434 views)
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A 'Children of Hurin' movie rights deal would be *extremely* ironic [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I know, Christopher Tolkien pushed through the publication of 'Children of Hurin' specifically to redirect the public's attention back to his father's written works and away from the runaway popularity of the New Line film trilogy.

That's why, among other things, he says in the Foreword to 'CoH' that he hoped the new book would prove readable and entertaining especially for those readers of 'The Lord of the Rings' who had not, by some chance, found 'The Silmarillion' or 'Unfinished Tales' or 'The History of Middle-earth' to be particularly readable. I always hear at this point a quiet and dignified voice with an educated British accent murmuring:
"See here, it is only 260 pages in a nice slim book with beautiful illustrations! Much shorter and easier to read, even, than 'The Lord of the Rings' itself! Surely this will tempt you new fans of those films to read about the Elder Days of my father's legends in his own written words, rather than idly demand that some ... film ... be made of 'The Silmarillion'!"

In any case, as others have said, it's unlikely that the Tolkien Estate will allow any more films to be made from JRRT's works. Christopher Tolkien has, I think, set up a trust to tend to his father's literary properties after his death, which is expected to follow CT's policy of "no more films."



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 22 2014, 10:37pm

Post #12 of 12 (466 views)
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It's already been expanded some... [In reply to] Can't Post

from scattered chapters and notes, to forge some narrative consistency. I agree that if Tolkien had written it from scratch it would have been longer and more complex, but Christopher really considers his proper role as more editor than author.







 
 

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