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Noria
Gondor
Jun 20 2014, 1:51pm
Post #1 of 14
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Where is Azog’s army going?
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I recently listened to the latest Riddle in the Dark discussion by the Tolkien professor Corey Oleson and his crew. They brought up a very interesting point that I had not considered: what is the objective of Azog and his army? I apologize if this has been discussed before – I don’t remember it.
As a book reader, I had assumed without thinking about it that since movie Sauron has an orc army and an orc army will turn up at Erebor, they are one and the same. Maybe they are, but it is much more complex than that.
As Oleson pointed out, when Sauron summons Azog and appoints him the commander of his army, Gandalf and the Dwarves are at Beorn’s house. Smaug is still alive and kicking and maybe in communication with Sauron. There are no armies of any kind heading for Erebor. Later we see the orc army leaving Dol Guldur but Smaug is still alive and in possession of the Lonely Mountain so that part of the world is secure. So at this point, Sauron has no reason to send his forces to the Mountain.
Is movie Sauron going after Thranduil? That’s possible, even as a first step in a larger campaign. Laketown is negligible and virtually powerless, defenseless and worthless to boot so I doubt that was the goal.
Or are Rivendell and Lorien in Sauron’s sights? Coincidentally, I’ve been rereading Unfinished Tales recently and in the Quest for Erebor section, Gandalf says that he believed that Sauron’s goal was to take out Rivendell and Lorien from Dol Guldur. With Smaug in the east and the two of the four elven homelands destroyed, he would be in a very strong position. So that is another possibility.
Now it could be that the orcs at Dol Guldur were just marching around so that we could see Gandalf witness their numbers, in which case they could set out for Erebor when Sauron learns that Smaug is dead. Or the army could be on its way somewhere when Sauron gets the bad news and somehow he redirects it. But what was the original plan?
What do all of you think?
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 20 2014, 1:54pm
Post #2 of 14
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I think Sauron intended to go to the Lonely Mountain an awake Smaug and after that going down from the north swiping any resistance
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with the aid of the army and the dragon
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 20 2014, 4:22pm
Post #3 of 14
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Sauron might be thinking third time's the charm. Of course he's going to have to secure a line of communication with the East first, which means the capture of Erebor, Esragoth, Mirkwood, the Carrock, and the High Pass over the Misty Mountains.
Also, one can question which Sauron would want more: Smaug or his hoard. Keeping armies in the field (not to mention rebuilding Barad-Dur) requires gold, so all that treasure in Erebor would be vital for Sauron's conquest of the West.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 20 2014, 4:22pm)
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 20 2014, 5:30pm
Post #4 of 14
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I do not think Sauron is interested in gold
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Since his power is fear Im sure he has no need of the hoard. However I can imagine one thing, maybe he intended to burn all Mmirkwood, that would have been an climatic catastrophe for all Middle Earth and all the cities people or strongholds surounding it would have flee without the need of sending an orc army or whatever, with aonly Smaug flying around and burning all.
I guess after all that the hoard kept Smaug inside the mountain, again evil playing against himself
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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Glassary
Rivendell
Jun 20 2014, 5:51pm
Post #5 of 14
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Think Sauron would want the power and control of a dragon. Plays into his efforts to stop Thorin from reaching Erebor and potentially kill Smaug.
Now that he has unleashed his troops I think he is moving to take Erebor and gain that control. He who controls Erebor and the gold controls the dragon.
Think then his objective is to scorch the entire area around Erebor starting with his closest and most serious enemy, Thranduil in Mirkwood.
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delius82
Rivendell
Jun 20 2014, 8:40pm
Post #6 of 14
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On a picnic! 
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jun 20 2014, 8:57pm
Post #7 of 14
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After overhearing the orc made me think that Thrandy fears an attack from Dol Guldur on his Realm. Erebor is the obvious destination of Saurons army but a attack on the Woodland Realm isnt that impossible, refering to the way they showed Thranduils reaction...
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 20 2014, 11:17pm
Post #8 of 14
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Smaug as Sauron’s collaborator or foe
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It seems to me to be more likely that Sauron would want Smaug as an ally than an enemy and an alliance is what Gandalf feared, his motivation for helping Thorin. Sending an army would not achieve an alliance and trying to steal his hoard would make an implacable foe of the dragon.
I doubt that an orc army would do much good against Smaug, based as he was inside Erebor. (Unless Azog has a black arrow and knows about the weak spot in Smaug’s armour. ) Sauron would probably have to go himself to the mountain and that is not Sauron’s style by this period.
Anyway, the mission of Sauron’s orc army will no doubt be revealed in the third movie and hopefully it will make sense. I just think it’s an interesting question and I hope PJ has a viable answer, not a lame one.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 20 2014, 11:53pm
Post #9 of 14
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I think Thrandul know inmediatly after asking the orc that Sauron whatever is his first goal will use the dragon
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jun 21 2014, 5:38am
Post #10 of 14
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The flames of war are upon you..
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 21 2014, 1:04pm
Post #11 of 14
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I would think that Sauron would first want to attempt to recruit Smaug, and then mobilize the Orcs and Goblins of the Grey and Misty Mountains. If he was successful in making the dragon into an ally, the first objective would probably be to sieze Lake-town and turn it into a supply depot; then, attack Lothlorien.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bernhardina
Rohan
Jun 21 2014, 6:18pm
Post #12 of 14
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They sure must have a motive, moving out of Dol Guldur. But to where? When I first watched the movie I just thought Erebor, since I know what will happen there, the battle of the five armies... but, you're right. Why would Saruon want to send his forces to the lonely mountain? He has no reason to.
I am thinking the Woodland Realm. Because they would have to introduce Lothlorien in the movies again if the army is heading there, which I don't think they will. So Thranduil is the likely target. Very interesting indeed! How will this all turn out? Will the army "chase" Thranduil and the elves to the lonely mountain? The movie cannot come soon enough!!!
(This post was edited by Bernhardina on Jun 21 2014, 6:19pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 21 2014, 8:42pm
Post #13 of 14
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The first casualty of war is the plan!
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I am thinking the Woodland Realm. Because they would have to introduce Lothlorien in the movies again if the army is heading there, which I don't think they will. So Thranduil is the likely target. Very interesting indeed! How will this all turn out? Will the army "chase" Thranduil and the elves to the lonely mountain? The movie cannot come soon enough!!!
I think that it was Sauron's intention to recruit Smaug and additional goblins before attacking Lorien. Once Azog finds that the dragon is dead and the Men and/or the Wood-elves are mobilizing he would likely alter his strategy by recruiting the goblins of the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains in order to quell the potential alliance of Elves and Men. Azog does not seem like the type to wait for instructions from Sauron; instead I think that he would act on his own and hope that Sauron does not countermand him.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 22 2014, 2:02am
Post #14 of 14
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No I dont think Thorin is a goal to Sauron
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Take care of the words of the necromancer to Azog: death will take them all , or something like that I feel his aim is to reach the mountain no matter what
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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