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Arandir
Gondor
Jun 18 2014, 12:09pm
Post #1 of 24
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Can PJ use the BOFA to save the Eagles' current (bad) reputation? *book spoilers*
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Eagles in Middle-earth have garnered a slightly bad reputation by individuals unlearned in Tolkien.
They've been labelled as the "Taxi service of Middle-earth", "The last-minute rescue birds", "Day savers", "The problem-solvers", etc ...
Which, to a certain extent, is reasonable to think so.
Eagles appear in three major (defining) moments in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
In the latter, they arrive to aid the Peoples of the West in their struggle at the Morannon.
(not to mention Gwaihir carrying Gandalf around the vast distances of Middle-earth).
In The Hobbit, they first come to the rescue of the Dwarves in the pine wood forest, just in time before being set on fire by the Orcs/Goblins - a disastrous consequence to the story if this had occurred!
The next moment occurs precisely during the Battle of Five Armies; once again assisting the Free Folk against the Orcs: tipping the balance in their favour.
My impression is that, the majority of people who have branded these creatures with the above nicknames, are clearly not well-versed in Tolkien, and chances are that they'll walk into theatres this December with that same idea: potentially destroying their perceptions on the climax of Film 3.
People who've read the books will understand the Eagle's motivations, reasons and their allegiances in the stories; however, to those who are simply gathering their information from the films, will not.
Therefore, could Peter Jackson use the rumoured air battle between the Eagles and Giant Bats to seriously reduce their apparent invincible and problem-solving status?
I could definitely see the arrival of the Eagles during the battle, and most people reacting with comments like: "Ah, here we go ... the day is saved!"; but then introducing the Bats who pose a serious threat to them.
The battle could be shown as swaying to and fro between the good and evil armies, until it is Beorn's heroic entrance that tips the balance in their favour.
I believe that if we see this in the third film, perhaps both newcomers to The Lord of the Rings films and second-time viewers, may view the Eagles in a different (less, unconquerable light).
Then again, I could be wrong ...
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
Why we Love 'Sherlock'
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'
(This post was edited by Arandir on Jun 18 2014, 12:10pm)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 18 2014, 12:23pm
Post #2 of 24
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... in general even if you read Tolkien you have to read him carefully to understand the deeper aspects of the Eagles and that they are more than a deus ex machina.
As for the movies, I had hoped for a scene in DoS where one of the dwarves complains about walking again, with Gandalf answering:
"Be grateful they helped you at all. Many of their kin have been shot... not just by Orcs."
Looking grumpy in typical Gandalf manner onto the dwarves.
"They are far more than large birds, Master Dwarf. And rarely intervene in the affairs of this world. For they are neither part of nor bound to the fate of Middle-earth."
This would solve the fundamental puzzle for people without destroying the mystery surrounding them. Wasn't there a rumour that a scene such as this had been shot?
Although it also helps to restore and change their "reputation", for the movies such as simple scene would first and foremost close what many perceive as a plothole.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 18 2014, 12:28pm)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jun 18 2014, 12:41pm
Post #3 of 24
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That rumoured scene would certainly have helped...
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(and let's hope it makes it back into the EE) but PJ didn't help matters with his re-use of the dial-a-moth device for calling the Eagles in AUJ. At least in the book the Eagles see the disturbance for themselves, fly over to investigate and make the decision to intervene off their own backs...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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painjoiker
Grey Havens
Jun 18 2014, 12:53pm
Post #4 of 24
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It will probably show up in the EE, but that doesn't help the casual movie-goers who only watch the TE :/
I hope for something similar to what OP suggested 
Eagles dying and falling towards the ground causing massive destruction and sadness... 
Vocalist in the melodic metal band Betomast
and the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Jun 18 2014, 12:56pm
Post #5 of 24
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Really hope this gets on the EE.. btw, when will we get to know what's the new stuff?
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Thanks for the info, Arannir.
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. 
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk: lurkerinthemirk.wordpress.com
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Name
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 1:13pm
Post #6 of 24
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I think the Eagles should not "save the day." Beorn's arrival should be that "we're saved" moment. I'd like to see the Eagles get pretty beat up, close to being defeated.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 1:55pm
Post #7 of 24
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I have no problem leaving casual movie-goers in their ignorance
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I'm worried about people who give these movies a little thought.
And for these people, it's only the EE that matters.
Let's hope they fix the eagles... it's one of my main concerns with this whole cinematic saga.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 18 2014, 1:58pm
Post #8 of 24
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The Eagles have a bad reputation?
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Sorry, but I do sometimes wonder if I've strayed in here from an alternate reality.
I'm not getting at you at all, but I do wonder who it is, in the world, who actually objects to Tolkien's use of the Eagles. I've seen so many posts here in which someone says that someone else objects to them, calls them a taxi service, and so on, but in over forty years of reading Tolkien, talking about Tolkien's books with friends and complete strangers, and more recently talking about the films, I've never encountered a single person who actually thinks this him or herself. It's always reported speech - somebody else thinks this. Well, who? And if they exist at all, are you sure they aren't people who refuse to accept fantasy itself? Because if they are, there's no satisfying them whatever you do and no point in trying.
"The Eagles are coming!" I've grown up with the relief and joy of that cry from the age of eight, when I first read The Hobbit. I knew even then that if I were to jump off Beachy Head there was zero chance of a giant Eagle flying in to save me before I hit the rocks, but I accepted them with delight as an instance of hope when all hope had gone - and you can transfer the hope into everyday life, if not the actual eagle.
In principle, I think, trying to alter something just to win over an unspecified person or group of people who are presumed to object to it, without knowing the grounds for their objection, and whether they're actually open to re-thinking their position - or whether they even exist - is a very bad idea.
As for the Battle itself, I'd say there's nothing in Tolkien or in common sense to argue against some Eagles being hurt or even killed in the fighting - though if the assailant is going to be a bat it'll have to be a whole lot bigger than the ones that chased Radagast. Tolkien's bats seemed to be there to darken the sky more than anything, and to attack those who were already injured. But I daresay that won't restrict what Peter Jackson's bats might get up to!
ETA: For myself, I'd rather see Dain crowning the Lord of the Eagles in thanks for their help - but I doubt if we will!
(This post was edited by dormouse on Jun 18 2014, 2:00pm)
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jun 18 2014, 3:28pm
Post #9 of 24
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Giant bats?
What the...?
The eagles have also been called much worse names around the web for dropping off the dwarves at the TOP of a pillar of rock instead of the bottom. Maybe that's just in Jackson's Middle-earth, and maybe the rumored, but hard to see, stairs really are there, but sheesh... they'd make a poor taxi service.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 18 2014, 6:04pm
Post #11 of 24
(727 views)
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The Eagles arrive ahead of Beorn...
Maybe w/Gandalf on Gwahir
Radagst on another one.
They offLoad those TWO...
then Flying really high
Start Avalanches?
& Tossing Boulders?
to wipe out many of the Orcs
On the sides of the LMountain...
"Screaming Eagles" in Battle-Readiness
FREAKS OUT many of the Bats
to turn Their Elegance w/the Orcs,
into "Flying Traitors"
Snow Flying around in 3D would Be WAYCool
We know PJ
OWNS one of the Most Extensive
Private Airplane Collections in the World
& has Studied many
World War 1 & 2
Dogfight film...
So
Expect the
UnExpected from PJzz
Eagles!
Bomby
(An Actual Son! of a
WW2 Fighter ACE)
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greenbalrog
Bree
Jun 18 2014, 6:19pm
Post #12 of 24
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2 cents from someone who didn't read The Hobbit
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I watched and replayed the LOTR movies a lot. And, not once did I think the Eagles to be the "Middle-Earth taxi service" or "the birds that save the day".
I only started seeing them as a potential plot hole/gimmick after I read about it somewhere in the internet. So, up until that point that thought didn't occurred to me. So, the point is that up until then I accepted them as an extremely rare "divine intervention" kind of event. So, I was ok with that.
Now, after watching AUJ for the first time, and after I was aware of the Eagles somewhat importance let's say, I must confess that it was much harder to swallow the all thing. I mean, the scene is Ok, but I couldn't help not to think of how convenient the Eagles are in dire situations.
In other words, I would love that the Eagles could have been used only once in Tolkien's books to rescue the heroes from a dire situation. Used twice broke the magic for me a little bit.
Now I understand that they are to play a major role of some kind in BOTFA? Again? I wish I didn't know about this (my fault alone, of course).
So, yes, I'd say that it's quite normal for people who love Middle-Earth and have watched LOTR a lot, and even read LOTR (although not The Hobbit) to feel that the Eagles usage are a bit over-exploited and a too good plot device to rescue our heroes. Now, if that could be explained a bit better it wouldn't hurt.
(This post was edited by greenbalrog on Jun 18 2014, 6:20pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2014, 8:30pm
Post #13 of 24
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The Eagles did arrive before Beorn in the book, but not with Gandalf (who arrived at least one day earlier) or Radagast (who never shows up at all). Even with the aid of the Eagles the armies of the Free Peoples are just barely holding their own until Beorn appears. The Skin-changer is the one who truly turns the tide.
I would just as soon be happy if Raddy was kept away from the Battle of Five Armies. He wasn't part of it in the book and doesn't need to be present in the film. It is enough that he makes Gandalf's rescue from Dol Guldur possible and perhaps takes part in that fight.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Jun 19 2014, 1:01am
Post #14 of 24
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I would just as soon be happy if Raddy was kept away from the Battle of Five Armies.
If the quirky brown wizard participates, he will be the distracting blemish on what will likely be the greatest cinematic battle to ever grace the silver screen.
I hope Gandalf tells Radagast to go home.
And I like the guy.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 19 2014, 4:18am
Post #15 of 24
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Like Doctor Dolittle
Raddy can talk to
ALL.. Animals!
He knows "RobinSpeak",
& "RabbitSpeak"
demonstrated
in AUJ...
SOoo, Itzz Not too Far
from "EagleSpeak"!
Bomby supposes that he also
Knows "HedgeHogSpeak" ...
as well as "MothSpeak",
"ThrushSpeak"?
"SpiderSpeak"?
Jus' Suppose that itz Raddy
who gives the Crown to
Gwahir...?
Jus' saying
in English
Bomby
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Kendalf
Rohan
Jun 19 2014, 10:01am
Post #16 of 24
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Arandir: "I could definitely see the arrival of the Eagles during the battle, and most people reacting with comments like: "Ah, here we go ... the day is saved!""
Yes. I understand completely what you're saying here. As Arannir and others have pointed out, this is an issue primarily of Jackson's making as he has omitted, in all five films so far, to provide any sort of context, motivation or reason for the Eagles' behaviour...
...and that has led to the innumerable jokes, teases, memes, YouTube parodies etc that satirise the Eagles' role in Middle-earth.
Fingers crossed for (a) a line or two explaining their position and (b) some sort of vulnerability during the battle, eh?
"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."
(This post was edited by Kendalf on Jun 19 2014, 10:02am)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 19 2014, 12:00pm
Post #17 of 24
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I agree with you in parts... but imho more explanation would only help to explain what some perceive to be a plothole.
But that basic story element and the taste of "deus ex machina" remains - whether they are a bad taxi-service or send my Manwe, imho 
It is not like JRRT gives that much more context for them within the texts of TH or LotR either.
I therefore hope PJ will simply not overstate their impact on the battle and focus on the arrivals of Beorn and Gandalf (as well as Dain, of course).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 19 2014, 12:02pm)
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Skaan
Lorien
Jun 19 2014, 12:07pm
Post #18 of 24
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That they will need to use a different approach for the Eagles this time, or else there will be the risk of it becoming stale/cliché.
For example, rather than having the Eagles suddenly appearing out of nowhere again like in the previous films, they could maybe show the Eagles being alerted of the battle and flying to the battle, rather than a sudden appearance out of the sky. I also agree with the others that the Eagles shouldn't be the ones who save the day again, because that should be Beorn.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 19 2014, 3:45pm
Post #19 of 24
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But the Eagles appeared, without warning, only once in the films.
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That they will need to use a different approach for the Eagles this time, or else there will be the risk of it becoming stale/cliché.
For example, rather than having the Eagles suddenly appearing out of nowhere again like in the previous films, they could maybe show the Eagles being alerted of the battle and flying to the battle, rather than a sudden appearance out of the sky. I also agree with the others that the Eagles shouldn't be the ones who save the day again, because that should be Beorn.
The appearance of the Eagles was foreshadowed (in the films) both when Gandalf was rescued from the tower of Isengard and when they arrived in An Unexpected Journey to save the company from Azog and his Orcs. They only appeared unexpectedly at the climax of The Return of the King when they rescued Sam and Frodo at Mount Doom. Technically, I guess one could also count Gandalf being taken to Lothlorien when he returns as Gandalf the White. Not that it would be difficult to have Radagast alert them to the activities of the Orcs in Sauron's service.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 19 2014, 3:48pm)
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Skaan
Lorien
Jun 19 2014, 4:03pm
Post #20 of 24
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They still appear out of nowhere. It's like "Hey look, a moth" and then BANG, there's Eagles coming out of the sky. I'd like a bit more foreshadowing this time rather than just having a moth appear and be done with it.
I liked all the scenes with the Eagles in both AUJ and LOTR, so i don't have a problem with those. I just think that now would be a good time to go with a different approach, rather than using the same entry as in all the previous films.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 19 2014, 4:15pm
Post #21 of 24
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As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists)... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are.
-JRR Tolkien, Letter #144
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 19 2014, 7:11pm
Post #22 of 24
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However, talking about WWI and WWII fighter planes caused me to overlay engine noises into the Eagles' flight sound. I can see it now! 
Gandalf is on an Eagle, looking majestic, then we pan over to the right and see Radagast with a leather aviator helmet!  All the dialogue is filtered to sound like vintage radio, and the wizard's birds fly into the battle in formation. A few of the Eagles fall, but the wizard's birds swoop in, dropping them in a barrel roll, nearly missing the mountain and flying up to the summit . As they fall, we finally see Gandalf and Radagast deploy two parachutes-- Grey and Brown respectively; one of Saruman's inventions. 
My imagination knows no bounds!!!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 19 2014, 7:19pm
Post #23 of 24
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As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists)... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are.
-JRR Tolkien, Letter #144
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 19 2014, 8:59pm
Post #24 of 24
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I refuse to accept that the Eagles are any les of an enigma or deus ex machina in the books compared to the movies.
The only information given (in the actual two books) is their fear to get shot in TH if I remember correctly... which helps a little bit. But they must remain an enigma to the reader who only reads LotR and/or TH. Unless he makes sense of it by himself (which is perfectly possible for both books and movies, depending on your willingness to do so or to look for a "flaw").
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 19 2014, 8:59pm)
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A Far-Flown BombyTheory?
[
Why Bomby wantzz Raddy there?
[