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The Nine, Good and Evil
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SaulComposer
Rohan


Jun 19 2014, 11:46pm

Post #26 of 34 (206 views)
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I think that this is the first time and to that I say... [In reply to] Can't Post


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It is, after all, his book and his fantasy. And there were several characters who were alive but invisible at one time or another: Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Bombadil, Samwise, etc. Of those, do you really think Gollum had the "freedom of choice" you claim is essential for life?

But, in any case, they were all invisible and all living. It might not be your reality, but your reality is meaningless in Tolkien's fantasy. There are resurrections, there are reincarnations, there are barrow wights and Bombadils.

Would you like to admit you are wrong now, or would you to continue to argue even though all the facts are against you once again?



Invisibility does not equate to not having a physical body. I'm afraid that you are in the wrong due to misrepresenting Saul's statement.

However, Saul does underestimate Sauron, who used more than method to get his way. His servants and minions either share similar views to his own or are bred to evil and dispair. Sauron's enemies are attacked according to whatever he perceives to be their weaknesses. King Theoden is espelled and driven to apathy and dispair, until Sauron's hold is broken by Gandalf the Grey. He takes a different approach, however, with Denethor, the Steward of Gondor. He begins by playing on Denethor's pride and his fear of being displaced by an upstart king who might well be the ruin of Gondor. Only later does Sauron attack Denethor with despair at the end of his Line and in time his nation.


Touché

Smile

Music!


Morthoron
Gondor


Jun 20 2014, 3:20am

Post #27 of 34 (211 views)
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How many angels fit on the head of a pin? [In reply to] Can't Post


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In fact even the human soul is shaped exactly like the body, and the body is only the physical manifestation of the soul, like a clothing. The angels are also exactly like us, the same shape, the only thing they don't have is a body.
But they are not considered dead cause they were created this way, from the beginning without a body. But death, the most accurate definition of death, is the separation between the body and the soul. The wraiths had no more bodies, that means that they died, as simple as that.


I would suggest referring to the size of human souls and angels' appearance is your preferred form of fantasy, as unbelievable as invisible mortals still living through the coercive effects of Rings of Power. Fortunately, my suspension of disbelief ends when I finish reading a book.

Tolkien states on a number of occasions that the Nazgul are alive. I accept that this is how his sub-creation, Middle-earth, works. I also accept his world is peopled with immortal elves and that dwarfs are spelled "dwarves" -- because it his rules as far as who can be immortal or near-immortal and how words are spelled to suit his story.

What happens in the "real world" has really nothing to do with Tolkien's sub-creation, save what he as the author cares to impinge, parallel or borrow.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jun 20 2014, 5:03pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Jun 20 2014, 3:39am

Post #28 of 34 (187 views)
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I don't intend to explain these things to you, because they are unrelated [In reply to] Can't Post

To the discussion at hand, but calling something from this world which you don't understand as 'Fantasy' is not the same as calling something that you understand from the Fantasy world as 'Fantasy'...

At any rate, as I have mentioned before, Anyone is free to create their own theories and definitions within their fantasies, but as far as we're concerned we all know what is the definition of death and the definition of life.

Best Regards,

Music!


Morthoron
Gondor


Jun 20 2014, 3:49am

Post #29 of 34 (184 views)
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You are evidently confused.... [In reply to] Can't Post

When one speaks of "this world", adding fantasy elements from some belief in a myth created by men does not equate to the real. And it is not that I "do not understand", it is that I do not believe and reject the delusion.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



SaulComposer
Rohan


Jun 20 2014, 3:56am

Post #30 of 34 (187 views)
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Ok have it your way [In reply to] Can't Post

I have nothing to gain by arguing this with you.

Each to their own beliefs.

Have a wonderful night

Music!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 20 2014, 12:53pm

Post #31 of 34 (175 views)
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"I do not think that word means what you think it means." [In reply to] Can't Post


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In fact even the human soul is shaped exactly like the body, and the body is only the physical manifestation of the soul, like a clothing. The angels are also exactly like us, the same shape, the only thing they don't have is a body.



The above may constitute part of your "truth" but they are probably not observable or provable facts. How does one prove the shape (or even existance) of a human soul? The prophet Ezekiel might dispute your statement concerning the shape(s) of angels. Islamic tradition suggests that angels could manifest in physical form (and procreate with humans).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 20 2014, 12:55pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Jun 20 2014, 1:43pm

Post #32 of 34 (171 views)
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I repeat the same thing to you [In reply to] Can't Post

I have nothing to gain by arguing this with you.

Each to their own beliefs.

Have a wonderful morning

Music!


Felagund
Rohan


Jun 22 2014, 5:59pm

Post #33 of 34 (137 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right, Men of Twilight such as the Drúedain were not inherently evil. And even Men of Darkness could find redemption. I'm thinking of the Sons of Bór, specifically.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Felagund
Rohan


Jun 22 2014, 6:10pm

Post #34 of 34 (174 views)
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faded elves [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you reckon faded Elves are dead or dying? Tolkien wrote an interesting essay on this fading, published in HoMe vol. X: Morgoth's Ring ("Laws and customs among the Eldar"). Basically, an elf's corporeal form or hröa faded into non-existence over time. Not sure I'd regard these lingering elves as 'dead', but perhaps mortal men regarded them as ghosts - dead, from a certain point of view.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk

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