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Old Pilgrim
Rivendell
Jun 13 2014, 1:23pm
Post #1 of 7
(5175 views)
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Chapter of the Week: The Commander of Legions
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Desolation of Smaug
Chapter of the Week: The Commander of Legions
Greetings to all!
This is my second CHOW after the first one I done for AUJ and I'm really looking forward to discuss about it. While it doesn't include my favourite Wizard, it is great nontheless by introducing us once again the greatest living villain in Middle Earth and we see a glimpse of his relation to Azog the Defiler.
We are back in Beorn's house but now it is night, the whole Company is sleeping with the exception of Bilbo who suddenly wakes up and after a few moments takes up his Ring.
1.) What were you thinking of Bilbo's obsession with the ring? Were you surprised to see how quickly the ring's influence began to grow on Bilbo? Do you think that anyone in the group suspected about the existence of the ring?
Suddenly we hear a known omnious theme and the voice of the Necromancer saying the words inscripted on the One Ring in the Black Speech: Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. We are no longer in Beorn's house but instead in Dol Guldur, the ruined fortress we already saw in AUJ.
2.) What were your feelings when hearing those words? Did you know who are saying them or that they are written on the ring? What was the whole point of the Necromancer saying them at that very moment?
We see for the first time that Dol Guldur is not abandoned as we thought before. Orcs are crawling back to the fortress.
3.) How did you like the appearance of Dol Guldur in this movie? Was it different then in the first one? Did you know why are those orcs returning back to Dol Guldur?
Suddenly we see Azog again, standing on a high bridge as he is waiting for someone. We don't have to wait long as the great moving shadow appears and we can hear the Necromancer's voice.
4.) Were you surprised that they changed the appearance of Sauron from the first movie, when his shadow was clearly in the shape of men? Which portrayal did you like more? How did Azog knew that he should wait for the Necromancer on exactly that place since he was invisible before?
Then the conversation between Azog and his Master begins. Sauron says that his armies are almost ready and it will be Azog who will lead them to war.
5.) Did you like the fact that this entire conversation was in the Black Speech, despite we hear Sauron talking in the common tongue in LOTR trilogy? Did you like the voice of the Necromancer?
6.) Do you have any idea what are Sauron's plans when he is talking about war? Where do you think was he building his army since Dol Guldur looked so abandoned?
When Azog learns that he will be the Commander of Sauron's troops he doesn't look very happy. He objects without any fear despite talking with the Necromancer himself. Suddenly we see a shadow flows directly thought Azog's chest but he doesn't seems hurt at all.
7.) Were you surprised by the fact that Azog doesn't fear the Necromancer and is talking to him with such insolent tone? Do you think that he doesn't fear him at all or is he just so good in hiding true emotions?
8.) And what were you thinking of Sauron's opinion regarding Azog? Why did he choose that very Orc to lead his armies and not some other more humble and respectful one?
9) What was the point of Sauron's shadow flowing through Azog? Was he trying to intimidate or hurt him?
As the Necromancer dissapeared, Azog turns arround and calls for Bolg. All orcs suddenly retreat as they are fearing him and then we see again that big white Orc who is so similar to Azog. Since Azog doesn't want to call of the hunt, he asks Bolg if he hungers for Dwarf blood, giving him a task to hunt Thorin and his company in his place.
10.) Did you know all along that this is Bolg or were you surprised by that discovery? Do you think it was hard for Azog to intrust Bolg with this mission? Is Bolg going after Dwarves just because Azog told him to do that or there is more behind it?
11.) Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, visual effects, score etc.?
12.) Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?
I appologize for any mistakes but English is not my original language. I hope you will enjoy it!
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Retro315
Rivendell
Jun 14 2014, 3:00am
Post #2 of 7
(4770 views)
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1.) I liked him looking at the Ring a lot. I think it works for a couple of reasons. First, and again, this is in the context that the viewer has never seen Lord of the Rings and so we've just got a lucky magic ring here; FIRST it reminds the viewer that Bilbo has a magic ring that got him out of a jam in the last film. The disconnect between the two films demands that the ring be established before to being utilized - Jackson employs Chekov's gun. He shows it here in Beorn's, almost shows it just before Mirkwood, then in the Spider nest it's used. And then a LOT afterward.
SECOND, even in the context of watching the films back-to-back so the pacing is more natural and it feels like Bilbo has only just escaped the Goblin Tunnels, that was only a day or so before, so he's still marveling at this wonderful trinket he's come across and how it got him out of that jam back there.
2.) Hearing Sauron actually speak the ringchant was great, although I felt the way they cut to Dol Guldur was abrupt and too on the nose. This is mostly symptomatic of the large cuts made to the entire Beorn scene, and I expect it to be as largely changed for the EE as the Parley with Saruman was in ROTK. The camera panning through the ring itself was way too on the nose, but again, contextually - if you're seeing this trilogy first, before LOTR, all in chronological order, then because of the Black Speech, and no dubbing, you don't know that it's the Ring Poem being said, and you can draw no direct connection to Bilbo's gold ring.
WAY on the nose for Tolkienistas, but okay for the chrono and internal story consistency. I think, though, that this is a fan-service moment.
3.) I thought Dol Guldur felt like the Black Heart of Mirkwood. All the evil seems to center in Mirkwood here, and I think that's appropriate. I'm looking forward to spending more time in Mirkwood in the EE to further buff that ambient theme. It also has a vibe akin to Minas Morgul, with a dash of Cirith Ungol, although it's so ruined it's impossible to tell who originally built it (Sindarin Elves). It feels like a place you might find Nazgul. I honestly thought they'd do more Nazgul teases without actually revealing Sauron. It's a pretty effective digital location, although it does feel just a smidge "video-gamey".
As for the Orcs, we'd gotten context for their gathering from Bolg, and hints about Dol Guldur in the last film. I can also see the logic of moving Gundabad to Dol Guldur for the film purposes, to unite the "Misty Mountain Orcs" under Bolg with the "Return of Sauron" narrative. It puts it in one place, so the films have one Bad Guy Capitol. More context: The orcs themselves make it pretty clear that they're not "FROM" Dol Guldur, and are sketched out by the place. Elf ruins occupied by wraiths and a shadow wizard? Yep.
4.) I didn't know what to expect with Sauron. The first film felt unfinished. But his portrayal here was good. My favorite of all films. It felt like magic, on a higher plane. I didn't necessary love the shadow-cloud thing, but I wondered how they were going to pull off Gandalf sneaking through the dungeons and seeing the eye of Sauron, and they at least did it memorably. And it gives us a wizard-battle. Though, not much of a battle. As for Azog, I imagine some lowly orc told him where to go. "Stand on the bridge and await the Necromancer."
5.) Yes and no. I like hearing some Black Speech but wish it was used for flourish and they stuck with the Cockney that Tolkien used for such characters. I loved the Sauron voice, though. It felt painful and powerful, and like a disembodied dark wizard.
6.) You know ... contextually again, if you were watching these in order and knew nothing, it'd probably still seem very mysterious. Obviously this Necromancer is planning something, and Gandalf has intimated that an old enemy is out there, and also that all eyes are on Erebor for some reason. I like that it retains a bit of mystery and mystique, though.
7.) I think Azog has been around for a while. I do rather like that The Hobbit has a sort of Darth Vader figure with Azog, and Sauron is serving as the shadowy Emperor. LOTR's villains are so uniquely powerful, but the sort of "baddest Orc Chieftain ever" is a perfect antagonist for The Hobbit's scale and geography. This is also a guy who very likely has been in the presence of the Balrog of Moria, so taking jobs from these demonic figures is something he's gotten used to. Of course, the purist in me can't help bemoaning the fact that arguably, he should just be Bolg, and then Bolg is redundant. But as Orc Bosses go, Azog is beyond the Witch-king's Lieutenant, Gothmog or even your Lurtz/Ugluk types. The wolfrider, who may have even been commanding troops for the Witch-king in Angmar, or at least has that in his pedigree. His family goes way back with the servants of Sauron - he's a favored son of evil and has nothing to fear by bringing honesty and open disdain (as if an orc could conceal those things, anyway) to the meeting.
8.) Like I said, Azog's ilk have probably been running the show for a long, long time. Gundabad is linked to Carn Dum, Angmar and down to Moria. Sauron would probably like a chieftain whose desires basically line up with his, whose bloodlines have worked alongside his plans over the ages since his first downfall. Now, Sauron is a chessmaster and knows exactly how to use a guy like Azog, but still ... he doesn't have to use deceit or duplicity to get Azog to do what he wants. Azog does it as a matter of pride. Good help is hard to find - Sauron had to mesmerize nine mortal men to get his best help. And he's also in no condition to turn down what is arguably the strongest help in the area.
9.) I figured the shadow passing over him was just a bit of mildly metaphorical movie flourish. It effectively tells the audience that Sauron is a ghost. That's something we don't quite get in LOTR, when he's never really seen much, but it links with Saruman's statement later that he "still can't take physical form". If we see him in armor, it's ghost or haunted armor. He's a specter. They never really use those words, but the visual cues here make it pretty undeniable.
10.) I knew it was Bolg. I really think Bolg is redundant, when Azog should just be Bolg, but I get what they're doing and how it'll provide some bonus hero moments for the battle later. I do like that Jackson used the opportunity to show the weirdness of a father/son Orc relationship, but since these occur before LOTR, it answers questions about the nature of Orcs before we get into the scale and scope of LOTR where it's not that important. Of course, I don't think we get direct confirmation of that relationship in this cut of the film.
11.) I like the haunted castle vibe a lot, and like seeing these two Gundabad chiefs towering over their warg-rider minions. That said, I thought this scene came way too early in the movie and should have happened later, when the Dwarves themselves, too, were also in Mirkwood. It would contribute to the whole Mirkwood tension that way, and be less on the nose regarding Bilbo and the ring.
12.) The lighting, animation and syncing of dialogue were excellent. The Azog digital character finally looks as good as it should in this film, making up for the slightly glossy, too smooth look in the previous film. While I have my gripes about placement, it's certainly an evocative "Get to know your bad guys" scene that has a lot of potent mystery. I especially like the exterior shot of the orcs tenuously approaching the haunted castle, and the establishing shot of Azog striding confidently onto the bridge to commune with the dark wizard.
The successes of this film (beyond the source material) owe a lot to The Empire Strikes Back and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Whether he's Azog or Bolg, the Pale Orc is an effective Enforcer or "Dragon" villain character, arch-nemesis. And the setting itself is way cool. Since we never get to see the interior of Barad-dur later, this is a nice glimpse into a haunting ground of evil.
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 14 2014, 1:27pm
Post #3 of 7
(4699 views)
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We are back in Beorn's house but now it is night, the whole Company is sleeping with the exception of Bilbo who suddenly wakes up and after a few moments takes up his Ring.
1.) What were you thinking of Bilbo's obsession with the ring? Were you surprised to see how quickly the ring's influence began to grow on Bilbo? Do you think that anyone in the group suspected about the existence of the ring?
-I didn't see this as obsession as much as Bilbo’s curiosity about his new and very strange possession. This might have been the first chance that he had to examine the Ring in private and obviously he still wanted to keep it secret. In AUJ Gandalf seemed to notice something when Bilbo pocketed the ring but it seemed to me that no one else suspected anything. In addition this scene served to remind us about Bilbo’s ring.
Suddenly we hear a known omnious theme and the voice of the Necromancer saying the words inscripted on the One Ring in the Black Speech: Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. We are no longer in Beorn's house but instead in Dol Guldur, the ruined fortress we already saw in AUJ.
2.) What were your feelings when hearing those words? Did you know who are saying them or that they are written on the ring? What was the whole point of the Necromancer saying them at that very moment?
-I enjoyed this shout-out to the Ring and figured it was either the voice of the Ring itself or the Necromancer reciting the words. It reminded us that this is the One Ring, if any casual fans had forgotten. It was also a nice segue into the next scene.
We see for the first time that Dol Guldur is not abandoned as we thought before. Orcs are crawling back to the fortress.
3.) How did you like the appearance of Dol Guldur in this movie? Was it different then in the first one? Did you know why are those orcs returning back to Dol Guldur?
-I thought Dol Guldur looked great, very real, totally evil. If it looked any different I would have thought we were just seeing different parts of it than we had in AUJ.
-I assumed that Sauron was summoning his forces, based on what Bolg had said.
Suddenly we see Azog again, standing on a high bridge as he is waiting for someone. We don't have to wait long as the great moving shadow appears and we can hear the Necromancer's voice.
4.) Were you surprised that they changed the appearance of Sauron from the first movie, when his shadow was clearly in the shape of men? Which portrayal did you like more? How did Azog knew that he should wait for the Necromancer on exactly that place since he was invisible before?
-Yes, I was surprised but it's OK. It’s a bit lame but better than an eyeball and I can’t think way to present Sauron that I’d like better. I did rather prefer the human-like shadow from the first movie but that always seemed to me to be more of a mental projection to Radagast than an actual presence.
Then the conversation between Azog and his Master begins. Sauron says that his armies are almost ready and it will be Azog who will lead them to war.
5.) Did you like the fact that this entire conversation was in the Black Speech, despite we hear Sauron talking in the common tongue in LOTR trilogy? Did you like the voice of the Necromancer?
-The orcs and Sauron speaking Black Speech works for me because it makes them seem less human and more like orcs. I have seen enough foreign language films over the years that I have no trouble with subtitles. The voice of the Necromancer was great and I was glad he didn't sound like Smaug.
6.) Do you have any idea what are Sauron's plans when he is talking about war? Where do you think was he building his army since Dol Guldur looked so abandoned?
-All we know in the movie is that Sauron is gathering an army to go to war – where, when and with whom is unspecified. We book readers can guess. We didn't see enough of Dol Guldur on this visit to know how many orcs and wargs were there. Bolg had said that “they” were gathering there so I assumed that Dol Guldur was the gathering point.
When Azog learns that he will be the Commander of Sauron's troops he doesn't look very happy. He objects without any fear despite talking with the Necromancer himself. Suddenly we see a shadow flows directly thought Azog's chest but he doesn't seems hurt at all.
7.) Were you surprised by the fact that Azog doesn't fear the Necromancer and is talking to him with such insolent tone? Do you think that he doesn't fear him at all or is he just so good in hiding true emotions?
-It seemed to me that Azog did fear the Necromancer because beyond the one protesting question he didn't argue and just accepted the mission change. If he was afraid, he's too arrogant to show it, especially if there were any lesser orcs around. He seemed pissed off about having to leave off chasing Thorin but there seemed to be no question that he would obey.
-Azog is probably valuable enough to Sauron that he could get away with some insolence. Maybe it’s part of orc nature.
8.) And what were you thinking of Sauron's opinion regarding Azog? Why did he choose that very Orc to lead his armies and not some other more humble and respectful one?
-Azog seems to be a very powerful and experienced orc, certainly much greater than any of the others we have seen aside from Bolg. I would expect that Sauron knows he can swat Azog like a fly whenever he wants but Azog seems brighter and more gutsy than his followers so maybe Sauron can put up with a little insolence in order to make use of those traits.
9) What was the point of Sauron's shadow flowing through Azog? Was he trying to intimidate or hurt him?
-I didn't really notice that but Sauron seemed almost to behave as if Azog wasn't even there, carrying on with his own speech and pretty well ignoring Azog's words. Maybe it was just a bit of “shut up and listen”.
As the Necromancer disappeared, Azog turns arround and calls for Bolg. All orcs suddenly retreat as they are fearing him and then we see again that big white Orc who is so similar to Azog. Since Azog doesn't want to call of the hunt, he asks Bolg if he hungers for Dwarf blood, giving him a task to hunt Thorin and his company in his place.
10.) Did you know all along that this is Bolg or were you surprised by that discovery? Do you think it was hard for Azog to intrust Bolg with this mission? Is Bolg going after Dwarves just because Azog told him to do that or there is more behind it?
-I knew it was Bolg but only because of spoilers. (I'm not very interested in orcs.) I think that Azog wanted to go after Thorin himself but Sauron had spoken. It’s clear that there is absolutely no disobeying Sauron for Azog but he did an end run and found a way to get what he wanted by sending Bolg. I doubt that Bolg had any option but to obey Azog but Azog sweetened his orders with talk of dwarf blood. So Bolg must hate dwarves too, but why is unknown. Maybe it's a family tradition.
11.) Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, visual effects, score etc.?
-I thought the lighting and cinematography of each scene of this nighttime sequence was great.
-Azog, Bolg and the other orcs, as well as the ruins, all looked completely real to me.
-I loved the spookiness of Dol Guldur, the eerie beauty as the camera glides over and through it.
-Howard Shore can do no wrong in these movies as far as I’m concerned so I liked the score.
12.) Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?
-The little we saw of Beorn’s house was great, with wonderful details like the chess set, the carvings, the fabric. I liked how Beorn just came in the back door rather nonchalantly and wish we had seen what happened next. Did he just lie down and go to sleep?
-I had to laugh about how little time it took Azog and his company to get to Dol Guldur, though that’s not unusual in PJ’s Middle Earth. Those wargs must move fast so how on earth did the company outrun them at all? I wonder if more time passed than we saw and if we will get scenes in the EE to show this.
-Both Azog and Bolg felt very solid to me in these scenes and I enjoyed the swaggering. Bolg strutted in at Azog’s call as if he hadn't been summoned like a dog and pushed through the lesser orcs just like a teenage bully.
-It’s interesting that for all of PJ’s (maybe facetious) talk of fathers and sons being a theme in this movie, IIRC we are never told that Bolg is Azog’s son. Maybe in the EE.
Thanks Old Pilgrim.
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Kim
Valinor
Jun 14 2014, 6:47pm
Post #4 of 7
(4679 views)
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1.) What were you thinking of Bilbo's obsession with the ring? Were you surprised to see how quickly the ring's influence began to grow on Bilbo? Do you think that anyone in the group suspected about the existence of the ring?
Yeah, I was a little surprised to see how entranced Bilbo was with the ring. No, I don’t think anyone suspected anything, except perhaps Gandalf when he saw the glint of gold just before the Into the Fire scene in AUJ.
I like the pan of the camera through the house before we see Bilbo, especially the shot of the chess board and the mice.
2.) What were your feelings when hearing those words? Did you know who are saying them or that they are written on the ring? What was the whole point of the Necromancer saying them at that very moment?
I actually was more interested in the visuals of this particular shot. I saw the movie in 3D IMAX HFR and the part where the camera goes through the columns was amazingly vivid. I really felt like I was there, and it was actually rather uncomfortable because it was so vivid. That place is so creepy, I don’t want to feel like I’m there! I thought it was the ring speaking as we moved from Bilbo to Dol Goldur, so didn't really think of it as the necromancer saying the words. More like an echo of the past.
3.) How did you like the appearance of Dol Guldur in this movie? Was it different then in the first one? Did you know why are those orcs returning back to Dol Guldur?
Like I said above, that place is creepy! The shots in AUJ were creepy, but fairly short, so I was ok with them. This scene took it to the next level, partially because it was at night, and partially since we got to see so much more of the place, and see that it wasn’t abandoned.
4.) Were you surprised that they changed the appearance of Sauron from the first movie, when his shadow was clearly in the shape of men? Which portrayal did you like more? How did Azog knew that he should wait for the Necromancer on exactly that place since he was invisible before?
I thought this scene was staged very interestingly. I was really striking watching Azog walk out on that high walkway – the sound of his footsteps always catches my ear. And I thought the new appearance of the necromancer was much more visually interesting. I didn’t really like the one in AUJ, it felt oddly shaped. This one feels much more menacing. I assumed that was a common meeting place for Azog to go to get his orders.
5.) Did you like the fact that this entire conversation was in the Black Speech, despite we hear Sauron talking in the common tongue in LOTR trilogy? Did you like the voice of the Necromancer?
Yeah, it was very menacing and dark, and again very striking, to match the visuals. A little unsettling too. I thought it sounded like it was backwards, and it turns out that is how they recorded it, then reversed it (I think). So, very other-worldly.
6.) Do you have any idea what are Sauron's plans when he is talking about war? Where do you think was he building his army since Dol Guldur looked so abandoned?
Not really, I wasn’t really focused on logistics like that at the time.
7.) Were you surprised by the fact that Azog doesn't fear the Necromancer and is talking to him with such insolent tone? Do you think that he doesn't fear him at all or is he just so good in hiding true emotions?
I get the impression that Azog has been a leader for so long, he doesn’t really bow down to anyone, especially as he’s been so focused on getting Thorin. Maybe he doesn’t fully appreciate the necromancer’s power in the past, or who he really is.
8.) And what were you thinking of Sauron's opinion regarding Azog? Why did he choose that very Orc to lead his armies and not some other more humble and respectful one?
Probably because he’s the strongest and most forceful of the orcs around at this time.
9) What was the point of Sauron's shadow flowing through Azog? Was he trying to intimidate or hurt him?
Yeah, could be trying to intimidate him, in a “I’ll show you who’s boss, do as you’re told” kind of way.
10.) Did you know all along that this is Bolg or were you surprised by that discovery? Do you think it was hard for Azog to intrust Bolg with this mission? Is Bolg going after Dwarves just because Azog told him to do that or there is more behind it?
I figured it was him, and I like how Azog calls for him and he marches in knocking the smaller orcs out of the way. You can really see the resemblance in size/stance between the two larger orcs. Yes, I think Azog is really mad at having to give up his hunt, and doesn’t really want to hand it off to anyone, but it make sense to have his second in command take it up. Bolg doesn’t really seem to react much, although it would make sense that he would enjoy going after the dwarf who chopped off his father’s arm.
11.) Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, visual effects, score etc.?
Very visually striking in a creepy way, and the music adds to the menacing, unsettling aspect. And the quiet as Azog walks out on the walkway was a striking contrast, especially with what comes after with the necromancer’s entrance.
As for Bolg, this was the first time I noticed that his armor is actually embedded in his body, which just makes me wince. And his face is so disturbing, I don’t really want to look at him head on.
12.) Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?
Thorin’s hair: well, even though we don’t see it, you just know Azog is thinking about it as he argues with the necromancer because he wants to continue his hunt for that dwarf with the glorious hair. 
I apologize for any mistakes but English is not my original language. I hope you will enjoy it!
Wouldn’t even have noticed if you hadn’t mentioned it. Great questions Old Pilgrim, thanks!
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2014, 1:09am
Post #5 of 7
(4659 views)
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1.) What were you thinking of Bilbo's obsession with the ring? Were you surprised to see how quickly the ring's influence began to grow on Bilbo? Do you think that anyone in the group suspected about the existence of the ring?
I like the quiet look at Beorn's house at night (just had to get that in there) before this shot. I don't know if I thought Bilbo was "obsessed" with the ring per se, although I would go as far as "fascinated" with it. First, it's a good reminder to the audience that Bilbo has a magic ring. And for those who have never seen LOTR, there are a couple blatant clues here that all is not well with Bilbo's ring. He gets it out rather furtively, as if he has something to hide. (No, I don't think anyone but Gandalf has a clue to its existence--and I don't think Gandalf really knows exactly what he suspects.) Then, as Bilbo strokes the ring, we hear this spooky harsh whispering and we sort of go through the ring into the Orc scene. Bad news, people! Orcs are nasty! This ring is taking us bad places!
2.) What were your feelings when hearing those words? Did you know who are saying them or that they are written on the ring? What was the whole point of the Necromancer saying them at that very moment?
I didn't realize initially that the words were the ring poem in Black Speech. And I'm still not sure if it's the Necromancer talking, or the ring forgetting it knows how to sing.  Anyway, I think the point is that there is a connection between the Necromancer and the ring.
3.) How did you like the appearance of Dol Guldur in this movie? Was it different then in the first one? Did you know why are those orcs returning back to Dol Guldur?
Dol Guldur seemed bigger somehow in DOS. I'm not sure if that's the spell of concealment making it look smaller in the first movie, or just a re-envisioning of it for DOS. I figured the Necromancer had called other Orcs at the same time he called Azog. Obviously something big is cooking up there...but it could be I was spoiled by all the trailers.
4.) Were you surprised that they changed the appearance of Sauron from the first movie, when his shadow was clearly in the shape of men? Which portrayal did you like more? How did Azog knew that he should wait for the Necromancer on exactly that place since he was invisible before?
I guess I wasn't really surprised that they changed his appearance, because it looked a little strange in the first movie and needed some help. I like the creepy evil black fog, which makes more sense with Sauron's inability to take a physical form quite yet. I assumed Azog had met with the Necromancer in this general area before, even if it was just a meeting with a voice. I particularly liked the angles we viewers get with this scene--I felt kind of vulnerable the first time I saw it (of course, it was in IMAX 3D).
5.) Did you like the fact that this entire conversation was in the Black Speech, despite we hear Sauron talking in the common tongue in LOTR trilogy? Did you like the voice of the Necromancer?
6.) Do you have any idea what are Sauron's plans when he is talking about war? Where do you think was he building his army since Dol Guldur looked so abandoned?
On one hand I like hearing the Black Speech, first because I like to hear the realization of Tolkien's languages, and second because it makes sense that Sauron would speak in Black Speech with Orcs. On the other hand, it's language that seems repulsive to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth, and it does in fact sound grating. I like the Necromancer's voice in that it sounds ominous and ruthless.
Well, again I was spoiled with the idea that Sauron is raising an army of Orcs, and that a darkness is coming. I think he was building in his army in the sense that he had planned who he was going to bring, but he also could have a great deal of it housed in Dol Guldur because of the spell of concealment.
10.) Did you know all along that this is Bolg or were you surprised by that discovery? Do you think it was hard for Azog to intrust Bolg with this mission? Is Bolg going after Dwarves just because Azog told him to do that or there is more behind it?
11.) Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, visual effects, score etc.?
12.) Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?
Yes, I knew it was Bolg. I think Azog had no choice but to give up his personal mission against Thorin, but who better to take it up for him than #2, Bolg? Well, obviously Bolg likes Dwarf blood, so maybe he's thirsty.  Bolg seems pretty arrogant, but not terribly reluctant to obey--I'm not sure whether it's family loyalty or his own resentment against Thorin, or just doesn't mind being a bit of a free agent.
Bolg’s face hurts me. That is my only other observation. 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Old Pilgrim
Rivendell
Jun 15 2014, 3:51am
Post #6 of 7
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for participated in this discussion!
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 18 2014, 8:33pm
Post #7 of 7
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1.) What were you thinking of Bilbo's obsession with the ring? Were you surprised to see how quickly the ring's influence began to grow on Bilbo? Do you think that anyone in the group suspected about the existence of the ring? I was a little surprised how much it seems to be taking hold over him. The scene in Mirkwood was more surprising than this, however. The film gives no indication that anyone in the group suspected anything--although I wish there had been a hint of it somewhere, as I love how he reveals his ability to disappear to the dwarves in Mirkwood. 2.) What were your feelings when hearing those words? Did you know who are saying them or that they are written on the ring? What was the whole point of the Necromancer saying them at that very moment? I thought it sounded a little too strong, as if Sauron was actually in a physical form at this point. (I *really* thought it was Voldemort's voice at first; I just got that vibe). I recognized them immediately as the Ring inscription. I assume the Necromancer is calling together his army in preparation for war. 3.) How did you like the appearance of Dol Guldur in this movie? Was it different then in the first one? Did you know why are those orcs returning back to Dol Guldur? It looks very ancient in this film. I thought the CGI of the fortress itself looked a little too clean. It looked better with the overhead shots of the Orcs walking under the trees. I assumed that the Orcs were answering the Necromancer's summons. 4.) Were you surprised that they changed the appearance of Sauron from the first movie, when his shadow was clearly in the shape of men? Which portrayal did you like more? How did Azog knew that he should wait for the Necromancer on exactly that place since he was invisible before? I liked this appearance much more. Very menacing, yet still felt like he wasn't at complete strength. 5.) Did you like the fact that this entire conversation was in the Black Speech, despite we hear Sauron talking in the common tongue in LOTR trilogy? Did you like the voice of the Necromancer? I loved the voice in this scene. Although it seems quite different to the one heard in LOTR. Hearing Black Speech makes much more sense, as I doubt Azog would know the Common tongue. 6.) Do you have any idea what are Sauron's plans when he is talking about war? Where do you think was he building his army since Dol Guldur looked so abandoned? I gathered that there is a planned assault, but it's never stated where. I'm sure the army was being built in the mountains and other various Orc domains. We haven't seen the full extent of Sauron's plans (next film), so we'll see how this all works out then. 7.) Were you surprised by the fact that Azog doesn't fear the Necromancer and is talking to him with such insolent tone? Do you think that he doesn't fear him at all or is he just so good in hiding true emotions? Azog is quite independent and doesn't like taking orders. Since he should be dead, we have no idea to what extent and the 'why's' behind his alliance to the Necromancer. It seems that he is more of a mercenary than an underling, at least from his perspective. He probably thinks he's doing this out of choice. I think he fears the Necromancer, but also is blinded by his desire to kill Thorin. 9) What was the point of Sauron's shadow flowing through Azog? Was he trying to intimidate or hurt him? A display of power. 10.) Did you know all along that this is Bolg or were you surprised by that discovery? Do you think it was hard for Azog to intrust Bolg with this mission? Is Bolg going after Dwarves just because Azog told him to do that or there is more behind it? I assumed all along it was him. Bolg's full motivation is unclear at the moment. I won't be surprised to hear that he's a sadistic torturer in the next film. Perhaps Beorn will be involved in this subplot. 11.) Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, visual effects, score etc.? Nice to see more coverage of Dol Guldur here. Although I still can't figure out the general layout of the place. It seems like each new scene there reveals another large portion of the place. 12.) Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations? None that I can think of at the moment. I appologize for any mistakes but English is not my original language. I hope you will enjoy it! Wonderful job, Old Pilgrim! Your English is great, so don't worry. 
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