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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 5:20pm
Post #101 of 120
(550 views)
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Hitler wrote in his book that the Jews invented human consciousness, and that's why he hated them, its not because of their race. Judaism, and its humane teachings were in stark opposition to his bellicose and horrific aims of world conquest and terror.
Think about it...
I'm no preacher or a politician…
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 13 2014, 5:27pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 5:21pm
Post #102 of 120
(550 views)
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Not just Jews, but Poles, Slavs, Ukrainians, Blacks, Homosexuals, Roma Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, the Handicapped, Communists, Freemasons, Esperantists, and many other non-Jews were targeted for massacre by the Nazis. The Jews were 6 million out of an estimated 17 million victims of the Holocaust.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 5:26pm
Post #103 of 120
(547 views)
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I'm delighted that slowly but surly you begin to accept my stance...
[In reply to]
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Yes, it was not all about religion, but for the Jews it was all about religion. For the gays, it was because he hated gays, and for the Poles he simply detested them because whatever reason, murder? yes, probably that was the whole aim of murdering so many people, Jews for their religion, Gays for the sexuality, Catholics because he held that Christianity in general was an offshoot of Judaism, and so on, he has murdered over 58 million people of all background and races each for a different reason, but NEVER because of race, for it was a ludicrous excuse to excuse away and justify his atrocities...
I'm no preacher or a politician…
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 5:31pm
Post #104 of 120
(537 views)
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A lot of the hatred was inspired by "The Protocols of Zion", a book completely made up but which a whole lot of people insisted upon believing as certain and obvious. How can someone can believe one book is true despite every indication of logic and reason that it is not is totally beyond me. (Wait... Was this the basis of an argument earlier in the thread?)
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 5:34pm
Post #105 of 120
(537 views)
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You concluded that Hitler murdered Jews because of territorial expansion.
Wow, thanks for agreeing with me all along.
1. The Jews at that time never held territory.
2. He wanted to remove the Jews because of their religion so he could continue to dominate the rest of the world.
Should I add anything more, or will you admit that you agree with my stance...?
I only agree with you to a very limited degree. I never stated that Germany was killing the Jews in order to take territory from them (although the state could then sieze their property and land). I said that the Jews and other minorities targeted for extermiation were being scapegoated for many of the problems that faced Germany after the First World War. The goal of Nazi Germany was expansionism. Stirring anti-Semetic feelings were one means to that end in that it helped consolidate Nazi control. Insistance of Aryan superiority implied racism against non-Aryans of all types. In any case, even if you can prove that Nazi Germany was not fundamentally racist, that does not prove that racism does not exist. This is the premise on which you are dead wrong.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 13 2014, 5:37pm)
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 5:35pm
Post #106 of 120
(530 views)
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You're really fun to argue with but sometimes you just bring forth totally unrelated material...for the love of god what does this have to do with the discussion...?
I'm no preacher or a politician…
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 5:40pm
Post #107 of 120
(522 views)
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Jews in that time never held territory officially, like the state of Israel today holds. Secondly, if he had problems with German Jews, why did he murder Latvian Jews for example? He simply wanted to murder. don't you get it?
He couldn't care less about Germany or expansionism, he wasn't a patriot, he was a dark demon straight from hell...
So in order to spread his terror he held that he had to murder that first nation that stands for moral virtue and the Ten Commandments, for going about his murderous plans without first doing that, would have been extremely difficult. He thought that by destroying the people that enlightened the world through their moral code, would have given him to continue his atrocities without much problems. The war was not of a physical nature, it was of a spiritual nature. He hated Judaism and what it stood for, and its messengers the Jews. This is what happened. It only became physical because of what the Jews stood for, so he thought that by killing the physical messenger he could kill the spiritual message.
I'm no preacher or a politician…
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 13 2014, 5:55pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 6:04pm
Post #108 of 120
(517 views)
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Don't be cute! You are refuting a position that I never took. I never stated that the Jews held territory or that Germany was attempting to take said territory from them. However, Poland and other lands were invaded.
Hitler as a literal demon? Really?
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 13 2014, 6:04pm)
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 6:14pm
Post #109 of 120
(515 views)
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Don't be cute! You are refuting a position that I never took. I never stated that the Jews held territory or that Germany was attempting to take said territory from them. However, Poland and other lands were invaded.
Hitler as a literal demon? Really?
He sure did way more damage then any literal demon...for even the Balrog of Morgoth didn't murder 58 million people of all races and backgrounds...Yes humans if they rise up they can become higher then the angels, but if they fall, they fall the lowest...
I'm no preacher or a politician…
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 6:16pm
Post #110 of 120
(511 views)
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....Hitler tried to *give* Jews land! Ever hear of the Madagascar Plan?
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 6:22pm
Post #111 of 120
(502 views)
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It was proposed and not 'tried' by the notorious Franz Rademacher head of the Jewish Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the Nazi government...
Yes, so that was a humane suggestion? to take German Jews that lived there forever, since their mother's all were local as the study shows, and throw them to some Island with no food, clothing, resources, virtually empty handed, while robbed from all their belongings and wealth, and destined to enter an Island that is roamed by wild animals, and few natural resources, no housing, pluming. hospitals, schools and infrastructure...this was surely a a 'sugar coated' death sentence...
I'm no preacher or a politician…
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 6:48pm
Post #112 of 120
(497 views)
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So we're only talkijg about what Hitler himself personaly did and not about the Nazi government under him?
That's an entirely different kettle of fish!
So, how many people did Hitler personally kill in the Holocaust?
...wild animals, and few natural resources, no housing, pluming. hospitals, schools and infrastructure....this was surely a a 'sugar coated' death sentence...
Tell that to the Americans, Australians, and Isaelis.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 6:51pm
Post #113 of 120
(500 views)
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One demon in particular definitely did far more damage over the millenia between now and the Garden of Eden.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 13 2014, 6:51pm
Post #114 of 120
(584 views)
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This debate has wandered very far afield. We have now left the topic of Tolkien and are well into discussions of side topics which have, at best, tenuous relevance as we have no detailed record of Tolkien's views on them other than the quotes which were already discussed early on. If anyone wishes to continue a discussion of Hitler, Anti-Semitism, or race politics, you may do so via PM. Unless anyone has something Tolkien-related to say on this subject that is not a rehashing of something said earlier in the thread, this thread is has run its course. Please return to the regular business of the Reading Room (discussing Tolkien's works). Thank you.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 7:48pm
Post #115 of 120
(514 views)
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The existence of the various races within the Lotr doesn't indicate at all, that Tolkien was a racist...
I'm no preacher or a politician…
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jun 13 2014, 7:58pm
Post #116 of 120
(487 views)
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There are naysayers in the article you quoted ...
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I doubt this one article based on one study is concrete proof of your assertions, given there are detractors within the article. I am not an expert on this field so I won't even get into the subject, but there are constantly published scientific articles on a multitude of issues... some are hogwash others are groundbreaking. Generally, in science, a theory is not accepted until there is a consensus (a rather vague term indeed). I don't know what the consensus on this issue is and don't really care. The researchers you cite in this article might be breaking new ground or plain wrong, but obviously others in the field disagree with them, which does not necessarily invalidate their findings, but their findings also might be tenuous at best.
But some scientists question these conclusions. “While it is clear that Ashkenazi maternal ancestry includes both Levantine [Near Eastern] and European origins—the assignment of several of the major Ashkenazi lineages to pre-historic European origin in the current study is incorrect in our view,” physician-geneticists Doron Behar and Karl Skorecki of the Rambam Healthcare Campus in Israel, whose previous work indicated a Near Eastern origins to many Ashkenazi mitochondrial types, wrote in an e-mail to The Scientist. They argue that the mitochondrial DNA data used in the new study did not represent the full spectrum of mitochondrial diversity
Eran Elhaik, a research associate studying genetics at the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health, is split. He agreed with the study authors that the study rules out a Near Eastern origin for many mitochondrial lineages of the Ashkenazis but disagreed that it rules out a Khazarian contribution. “Jews and non-Jews residing in the regions of Khazaria are underrepresented, which biases the results toward Europe as we have seen in many other studies,” he said in an e-mail to The Scientist. Elhaik recently concluded from autosomal DNA that European Jews did, in fact, have a Khazarian background.
David Goldstein, a geneticist and director of the Center for Human Genome Variation at the Duke University School of Medicine, said that the questions of whether there was a Khazar contribution to the Ashkenazi Jews’ lineage, or exactly what percentage of mitochondrial variants emanate from Europe, cannot be answered with certainty using present genetic and geographical data. Even if a set of variants are present in a specific region today, that doesn’t mean that the region always had that set of variants. Some variants could have been lost due to drift, or perhaps migration altered the balance of variants present in the population.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 8:07pm
Post #117 of 120
(502 views)
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since this thread's about to get locked. 
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 8:07pm
Post #118 of 120
(499 views)
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Now it's about to just go!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 13 2014, 8:08pm)
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 13 2014, 8:23pm
Post #119 of 120
(485 views)
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Anywhere!
Or better yet, There and Back again!
I'm no preacher or a politician…
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 13 2014, 8:25pm)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 13 2014, 8:30pm
Post #120 of 120
(567 views)
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a rehashing of what you said before. The thread is done.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Topic?
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