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children of hurin chapter discussion: turin in nargothrond

Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2014, 3:23am

Post #1 of 19 (568 views)
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children of hurin chapter discussion: turin in nargothrond Can't Post

 
here turin is again living with elves. i haven't done a breakdown of the timeline of his years, but does he spend more years of his life living with elves than with not?

and yet another chapter with gwindor as a prominent foil for the super-human turin.... so gifted in demeanor, beauty, speech, and prowess, that he could not only be mistaken for an elf, not only be mistaken for one of the eldar who traveled to aman, but be mistaken for one of the great houses of the noldor (!)

.. .his face more beautiful than any other among ortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor."

... by the way, he was so elf-like, one of his epithets was "adanedhel," the elf-man.

back to gwindor....

gwndor's before and afte, and finduilas's attraction to turinr

At first his own people did not know Gwindor, who went out young and strong, and returned now seeming as one of the aged among mortal Men, because of his torments and his labours and now also he was maimed. But Finduilas daughter of Orodreth the King knew him and welcomed him, for she had loved him, and indeed they were betrothed, before the Nirnaeth..."

that's some change. he doesn't just look older and tortured, he looks like an elderly, mortal. wrinkled? wizened? grave lines drawn across his brow, down his cheeks? gray hair? sparse hair? balding? bald? bent in stature? misshapen?

gwindor was not only beloved of finduilas, they were betrothed. think upon that for a moment, the next time you're browsing the family trees in the appendices of the silmarillion. if things had been different, we would have seen a vertical line going from orodreth to finduilas, and a horizontal one between finduilas and gwindor. and perhaps offspring from their union. for gwindor to have been affianced to finduilas, he probably would have had to have had some sort of royal approval from the father-king, orodreth. gwindor was esteemed as a councilor, but he had something even more special to be acceptable as son-in-law material for a king, and to be in the position of fathering the heir to the kingdom.

in "morgoth's ring," tolkien writes of the special bond that elves have with those they bond with to wed. it's for life, and they did not need an official wedding ceremony to be considered bonded. recall the tumult when finwe wanted to remarry, because miriel did not want to return to the world of the liivng.

perhaps finduilas and gwindor were not fully bonded. but they must have loved deeply enough to be so, since they were betrothed.

1. was finduilas somehow going against the natural laws of the elves (i.e., biological laws) by breaking from gwindor?

2. does it show a weakness in her as a person? does it show a weakness in her as representative of elves, to break from gwindor?

3. are mortals superior in this way, because we are often able to look past looks and age and love the soul within (notwithstanding the plenty of examples where we fail in this regard)/

4. gwindor felt that he was unfit for her, after his return, but she seemed not to gainsay him. what was the attraction to turin? was it because he was... erm..... so emo? was she fascinated by the fact he was a mortal? she did ask him lots of questions about the edain.

5. elves are supposed to be very foresighted in love, and be able to "see" the person with whom they would be good mates, and find fulfillment. was finduilas's elf -radar faulty? she certainly hit close to the mark, when she named turin "thurin." was her elf-rader actually working? could turin have been a good partner for her, if he wasn't cursed? he wasn't attracted to her in that way in nargothrond.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jun 11 2014, 4:12am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2014, 5:32am

Post #2 of 19 (441 views)
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a chapter rife with prophecy and foresight [In reply to] Can't Post

 
"turin in nargothrond" is a chapter writhing in prophecy (which is a bit of a pun, since "ophiomancy" is divination based on the movement of snakes).

terazed presaged my proffering of this as a discussion point, and while i hope terazed shares those delicious insights here, you can read some of that thinking on the "the fall of nargothrond" thread --- which we haven't gotten to yet, in our chapter discussions (it's the next chapter).


gwindor's forebodings / foretellings

sadly, i cannot discuss gwindor's foretelling that it is only finduilas that stands between turin and his doom (that is for the next chapter -- alas, i thought it was in this chapter, for some reason).

gwindor knows (probably through his imprisonment in angband) that morgoth has cursed the house of hurin. but when his knowledge is referenced in the chapter, and when he speaks of it directly, it comes across as if his elven spider-senses are tingling...

Not fitting is it that the Elder Children of Iluvatar should wed the Younger; nor is it wise, for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for somme high cause of doom that we do not perceive. But this man is not Beren, even if he be both as far and as brave. A doom lies on him; a dark doom. Enter not into t! And if you will, your love shall betray you to bitterness and death."

i don't get the feeling that gwindor's jealousy is talking here. i get a more prophetic vibe.

and right after that, finduilas herself does her impression of the oracle of delphi:

finduilas's foretellings / forebodings

But what of your doom and rumours of Angband? What of death and destruction? The Adanedhel is mighty in the tale of the World, and his stature shall reach yet to Morgoth in some far day to come."

finduillas also seems to be stating this as some sort of fey vision, rather than just defending the adanedhel she loves.


1. is finduilas tapping into the prophecy of turin in the dagor dagorath? is she the in-universe source of the prophecy that turin will slay morgoth?

2. if so, could this be part of the reason finduilas is drawn to turin, because somehow she senses his exalted place in fate, and this influences her to believe that her love for him may be one of those special elf-edain pairings?

3. finduilas intuits that turin does not care for her in a romantic way. but she loves him anyway. she grieves that she cannot love gwindor any longer the way that she used to love him. is finduilas's love for turin part of morgoth's curse? morgoth's tainted flame beckoning her mothy nature? or is this something that just... "is"?

4. gwindor seems to feel morgoth's curse of turin. he tries to warn finduilas. why does he not try to warn orodreth?



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


sador
Half-elven


Jun 11 2014, 3:54pm

Post #3 of 19 (442 views)
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I'm not sure who to respond to first [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I'll keep the order of chapters, and that means answering you before Mikah. Apologies to her (again).


1. was finduilas somehow going against the natural laws of the elves (i.e., biological laws) by breaking from gwindor?
Well, what does it mean being betrothed? I think this tale was written before Laws and Customs of the Eldar, with all the complications that essay introduced. So perhaps it just means what it does among us.

Regarding your question, I would say not. If we assume the "natural laws" as stated in LACE, clearly being betrothed means much less then married. Unless it means an actual marriage which has not yet been consumated (and why not? Before the Bragollach there was no state of emergency, and even after it Nargothrond was safe), which does reflect very badly on Finduilas - but I think it isn't. Let's just say she had many suitors, and preferred Gwindor to all others.

If we do assume a "normal" kind of betrothal - Finduilas might be considered unfaithful, but not unnatural. And after all, Gwindor had released her.

2. does it show a weakness in her as a person?
They way she describes it, it is (which is why I love her as a character, btw).

But that depends on what you consider as "strong" - is it constancy in first love, or the breaking of convention and casting off the shackles of propriety? JRRT would prefer the first, for sure; but attitudes have changed since his time.

does it show a weakness in her as representative of elves, to break from gwindor? Hmm. In all three Great Tales, a Man-hero finds his way into a Hidden Kingdom, and is loves by the daughter of the Elvenking, who prefers him to a more natural lover (well, it is said that Maeglin and Idril could not marry - but this might have been just an addition to enhance our sense of his evil).
But unlike Idril, and perhaps Luthien (although we do not know what feelings she had harboured for Daeron, or whether she let him believe she does) - Finduilas is committed, however partially, to someone else. So she faces a dilemma (whatever spelling SirDennis prefers), and struggles withy it. Far more interesting, IMHO.

3. are mortals superior in this way, because we are often able to look past looks and age and love the soul within (notwithstanding the plenty of examples where we fail in this regard)/
Well, among mortals looks and age are a perennial, and therefore familiar, problem. We cannot claim superiority for being educated that looks are not all, when contrasted with someone who has encountered a marred person for the first time in all her centuries of existence.

4. gwindor felt that he was unfit for her, after his return, but she seemed not to gainsay him. what was the attraction to turin? was it because he was... erm..... so emo? was she fascinated by the fact he was a mortal? she did ask him lots of questions about the edain.
According to bher, his way to her heart was through pity. Which might ring a warning bell - do you remember who also made his/her/its way into a heart through pity, only to be stopped in timely fashion?

If not, consider it a riddle.

5. elves are supposed to be very foresighted in love, and be able to "see" the person with whom they would be good mates, and find fulfillment. was finduilas's elf -radar faulty? she certainly hit close to the mark, when she named turin "thurin." was her elf-rader actually working? could turin have been a good partner for her, if he wasn't cursed? he wasn't attracted to her in that way in nargothrond.
I'm not sure about the whole "elf-radar" concept. Where does it come from?

But I must note that in The Grey Annals, Tolkien did consider the possibility that Turin did reciprocate Finduilas' love, but was held back by his fear that she would become tainted by the curse which was laid upon him. Douglas Kane (our own Voronwe the Faithful) feels that the story would have been more moving had this earlier version been retained (Arda Reconstructed p. 202). This is a matter of taste; but personally, I prefer the Narn's description.



Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2014, 4:12pm

Post #4 of 19 (427 views)
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hullo, sador! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i do love your take that it is more interesting to see a conflicted character, rather than one nobly bowing out (as in turin bowing out from pursuing finduilas, because of the curse). however, i wryly note that gwindor nobly bows out because he deems himself unfit for finduilas after his return.

regarding gaining admittance into a heart through pity... are you referring to gollum and bilbo / frodo? or some other pairing?

regarding "elf-radar," this is something gleaned from LACE (laws and customs of the eldar, from morgoth's ring). tolkien speaks of elves being far more prescient than mortals in being able to perceive love and good matches, soul mates, what have you. i've forgotten the precise wordiing, but its something along those lines. and that they are also far less prone to simple, sexual lust.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2014, 5:10pm

Post #5 of 19 (433 views)
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who is orodreth? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the first few times i read the sil, orodreth didn't make an impression at all. i couldn't even remember he was king of nargothrond if i wasn't actually reading the relevant chapters. i find him (like so many other characters) more substantive in children of hurin.

i also lose track of the fact that he is galadriel's brother. that makes him a lot more substantive to me. i imagine him sharing her desire to rule lands, having much ambition, much intelligence, much pride.

it should be said, 'tho... that in one version of tolkien's writings, oroderth is galadriel's brother (this is in the published sil), but later versions depict orodreth as the son of angrod (which would make him galadriel's nephew).

regardless, we have another elven king opening his doors to a male edain, who has attracted the attentions of his royal daughter (as sador has pointed out in another thread). all of the preceding elven kings who have done this have lost both their realms and their lives. it does not seem advisable to do this welcoming thing.


who is orodreth?

so, who is this elven king of nargothrond (regardless of whether he is galadriel's brother or her nephew)?

orodreth strikes me as yet another variation on the thingol theme. thingol has more word count assigned to him, but aside from what additional adventures thingol has, major facts around orodreth are mightily echoed in thingol:

1. king
2. practically unassailable fortress
3. admits one of those pesky, questing male edain into the kingdom
4. too much pride which leads to his death.

we don't get any sense of his wife. regarding children, when orodreth is galadriel's brother, he has one child, finduilas. when orodreth is galadriel's nephew, he has two children, finduilas and gil-galad. vorowe the faithful and others can no doubt add much more scintillating information that i can regarding orodreth's origins and evolution.

orodreth seems quite enlightened as an elf. ala turgon, he finds something to admire in an edain, and does not dismiss him out of hand because he is not an elf. turin becomes his most trusted advisor, and a warrior who leads orodreth's forces.


how does prophecy and curse affect orodreth's decision-making?

there's the curse of morgoth. and there's also the elven prophecy that a message will be gotten to the valar from the mainland. nargothrond may even know of the special connection ulmo has with the house of hador.

1. did gwindor make known to the nargothrond populace, or at least to orodreth himself, that morgoth had cursed hurin's family, and that agarwaen was turin, hurin's son? if not, was he derelict in his duty for not doing so?

2. was orodreth influenced by / would have been influenced by this information? would he have been warned off trusting turin, had he known about the curse? or would orodreth just have gone on trusting turin anyway, because of ulmo's special relationship with the house of hador?

3. if the taint of morgoth's curse was on turin, could it not be equally so that the favor of ulmo on the house of hador clung to turin, and perhaps influenced others?

4. why did orodreth so quickly and so absolutely trust turin? does this seem natural, believable? or is the author's hand clearly seen at work, driving the plot forward?

5. did orodreth know of his daughter's feelings for turin? if so, what did he think? would he have thought turin a suitible son-in-law? or would he have thrown turiin out of nargothrond?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 12 2014, 12:01am

Post #6 of 19 (410 views)
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Sador's riddle [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll blow the answer. Gandalf rejected the Ring from Frodo because it would find its way to his heart through pity.

Naughty boy, Sador!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 12 2014, 12:19am

Post #7 of 19 (424 views)
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Finduilas just can't keep a man, can she? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for covering this chapter too, Mac!

Orodreth stands out in the royal dynasty by daring to have a unique prefix in his name. Finduilas, alas, is saddled with the family Fin. I think her problems only went downhill from there.

Oh, but back to Gwindor (he's so easily forgotten by readers just like people in Nargothrond). In light of Tolkien's views on monogamy, I think the Curse is at work here, sundering the betrothal bond between Gwin and Fin, and adding a double dose of curse by having Turin be uninterested in her. (Or someone might as well say he's gay, because he's never interested in women, not even a grateful farmer's daughter. But that wasn't the author's intent.) Hence Turin introduces unhappiness into the kingdom on an individual level, leaving Gwin and Fin as unrequited lovers in his wake, and Daddy Orodreth doesn't seem aware of what's going on. You bring up a good point about whether Gwindor warned Orodreth or not; I think not, and he should have. But Turin had that hypercharisma going for him, making everyone fall in love with him, even Mim, who hated everyone. I bet Morgoth would have fallen for him too.

Was his charisma part of the curse, or merely an innate trait? I think the latter, since he wasn't born a blank slate with "curse" written all over him. Hurin seemed fairly charismatic too. (Charisma is passed through the Y chromosome. I'm not sure what goes through the X one. *ducks for cover*)

What's left out of the context here is public opinion and the mutterings of people like Beregond and Ioreth in Gondor. What did the Elf on the street think about the Princess falling for this brief-lived creature, living no longer than a fruit fly? What was wrong with that girl?

Politically, the last time a man showed up, the king wound up dead. Shouldn't Nargothrond have a strict anti-immigration policy against Men out of self-preservation?

You call Finduilas mothy, and honestly, that's my gut feeling about her. I don't think she's the Good Girl drawn to the Bad Boy (that was Aredhel and Eol), but I don't think she's Arwen to Aragorn either, seeing a diamond in the rough. Her helpless attraction seems almost self-destructive, and I think her radar is turned off. Or charitably, it's blinded by the curse and a shiny sword and helm.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 12 2014, 12:30am

Post #8 of 19 (418 views)
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Orod--who? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lamentably, he seems a forgettable character, similar to when Galadriel laments that all her brothers have died, but she doesn't mention Orodreth. I know that was a different version, but still, the poor guy never makes a strong impression on me and seems to be the filler on the throne after Finrod is gone, a junior king. But he was what Nargothrond needed: someone to keep the place in hiding and stay out of trouble. Maybe being chased out of big, bad Minas Tirith was the kind of shock that made Orodreth cautious and reserved.

On the plus side, he seemed a devoted father (you bring up his wives--I think Elf-wives are as rare as Dwarf-wives and not always needed for the production of children. The family tree bears me out. Storks drop off babies when there's no wife around.) He was somewhat more charitable to Turin than Thingol was to most Men, though I remain unclear on his equivocal policy to Turin and the Outlaws. (Equivocal policies usually leave me unclear.) But then he was foolish in letting Turin get the run of the place. How is it a mortal can show up and turn a land full of immortals upside down, making them forget everything they ever knew about the Enemy, whom they used to have brunch with in Valinor and know better than any Man ever will? Or is that the curse at work, radiating from Turin and corrupting everything in reach? Somehow I don't think it can be that strong, so I won't give it the credit here.

Fascinating to think of Ulmo's virtue struggling with Morgoth's malice in the person of Turin, consciously or not. Ulmo was all over Cousin Tuor, and handily rescued Dad and Uncle Huor, so why wouldn't he have sprinkled some holy water essence on Turin too, particularly after Ivrin? Is that why things go right for Turin when they do?


Mikah
Lorien

Jun 12 2014, 1:40am

Post #9 of 19 (413 views)
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Finduilas flawed??? Never! Okay, maybe.... [In reply to] Can't Post

You call Finduilas mothy, and honestly, that's my gut feeling about her. I don't think she's the Good Girl drawn to the Bad Boy (that was Aredhel and Eol), but I don't think she's Arwen to Aragorn either, seeing a diamond in the rough. Her helpless attraction seems almost self-destructive, and I think her radar is turned off. Or charitably, it's blinded by the curse and a shiny sword and helm.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on her. From my understanding of a betrothal, it is more of a solemn vow, an oath if you will, than how we now think of engagement isn't it? It is difficult to keep trust in a person who breaks an oath, even more difficult to respect them when they are in the position of leadership...such as a princess. I do understand all of her reasons for not keeping this promise, I just do not believe they are justified. To pledge your love and life to someone, to the extent that you are betrothed to them, well...isn't it stuff like this that the promise is for? Perhaps the words "I will marry you so long as you stay devilishly good looking, charming, and able to command multitudes," were spoken, and I am simply not aware of it???Wink I do think that her response in this situation reveals a flaw in her character. But, I also kind of believe that it is a bit representative of how far the Noldor have fallen as well. They seem much more haphazard, flighty, not so proud or in control. When they first left Valinor, for better or worse, they seemed more in command of their own destiny than they do now. I kind of believe that not only is the curse at work here, but I believe that the Doom of Mandos is catching up with them as well.


sador
Half-elven


Jun 12 2014, 9:11pm

Post #10 of 19 (398 views)
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CuriousG got the answer correctly. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, so it is as I've guessed: you were basing yourself on that passage in LACE. I do not remember it well, but am not sure whether LACE in general is in harmony with CoH. It was written later, with a different tale in Tolkien's mind, and I do not think Finduilas can be expected to act according to it - although it is tempting to make the comparison between this frustrated couple and their uncle and great-aunt, Aegnor and Andreth.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 13 2014, 2:43am

Post #11 of 19 (382 views)
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How long could it last? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I've seen Finduilas as drawn to the magnetism that is Turin. I never got the sense that there was anything serious there, though. I think I got the impression it was a serious flirtation, and a form of 'courtly love' that was exemplified in the French and English royal courts.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 13 2014, 3:24am

Post #12 of 19 (386 views)
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i think [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think it was more than that, on her side.

there are references to finduilas growing pale and thin, and decreasing in happiness. she herself speaks to gwindor of having grown to love turin more than she loves (loved?) gwindor, who was her betrothed. i definitely get the sense that the feelings were sincere and deep on finduilas's side.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Terazed
Bree

Jun 13 2014, 3:43am

Post #13 of 19 (387 views)
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Finduilas in a different light [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Finduilas is a representative, like so many other of Elven maidens drawn to mortal men in Tolkien, of the concept of the eternal feminine (Ewig-Weibliche). In the west it dates back to Plato's concept of Eros as a messenger or intermediary who is neither immortal nor mortal between the divine and perfect and mortals. In neo-Platonism there was the concept of Sophia, or God's wisdom. There is an illusion to the way to spiritual awakening and redemption as a marriage between an unworthy mortal and Sophia. In the catholic church there of course is the Virgin Mary.

The romantics were interested in this concept. At the end of Goethe's Faust the character Mater Gloriosa aka der Ewig-Weibliche saves Faust's soul for God as the devil is about to carry his soul down to hell. There are also many stories by the romantics revolving around the marriage of a flawed man who is or feels he is beyond redemption and a woman who wants to heal him and grant him that redemption. Since you know I like Wagner and you asked in the forum on the next chapter I will tell you that Wagner was fascinated by the concept and it appears in one form or another in just about every one of his operas.

Since it is directly applicable to Turin, Finduilas, and Gwindor I will use the example of the 'Flying Dutchman'. In the first act the sea captain Daland is forced to seek shelter in a port on the Norwegian coast from a storm on his way home. The crew of his ship fall asleep and while they sleep a ghostly ship enters the port and bumps into his ship and ghostly hands furl the sails and grapple the ship. A pale captain appears and bemoans his fate. Because he once invoked Satan in defiance of a storm he has been cursed by Satan to roam the sea forever without rest. He was told by an angel that every seven years the waves will cast him upon the shore. If he can find a wife who will be true to him he will be redeemed from his curse. Daland wakes and meets the stranger. He tells the stranger that he has an unmarried daughter Senta. The stranger ask Daland for her hand in marriage and offers him a chest of gold as a dowry. Tempted by the gold Daland agrees and as the weather clears the two ships set sail for Daland's home.

In act 2 we meet Senta. She has a fiancee, Erik the huntsman, to whom she has been loyal. She has always been fascinated by the tale of the Dutchman and she pities him and would save him if she could. Erik arrives and warns her of a dream that he has had that her father Daland returns home with a stranger who carries her off with him to sea. She listens with delight and Erik leaves in despair. Soon thereafter Daland arrives with the stranger and presents him to her. The two gaze at each other in silence. Senta swears to be true to the stranger till death.

In act 3 later that evening local girls show up with food and drink for Daland's crew. They try to invite the crew of the other ship to join them without effect. They realize they are ghosts and flee in terror. Senta arrives followed by Erik who reproves her for deserting him and reminds her how she used to love him and vowed constancy to him. The stranger, who has been listening to the end of the conversation, is overwhelmed with despair and feels that his curse will never be lifted. He summons his crew to prepare for departure and tells Senta of his curse. Daland and his crew realizes that he is the Dutchman. As the Dutchman sails away Senta hurls herself off a cliff into the sea declaring that she will be faithful till death. As she dies the ship sinks and the Dutchman and Senta ascend into heaven.

This is one of Wagner's earliest uses of this theme but he uses it in many of his operas in ever more sophisticated forms. In many of them the man is fleeing his name and something bad happens when the woman learns his identity. By far the most famous of these is in Lohengrin. In the story Elsa von Brabant is falsely accused of murdering her brother. She demands a trial by combat and when no one steps forward to defend her a mysterious knight arrives in a boat drawn by a swan (Lohengrin, knight of the holy grail). After he wins he agrees to marry her as long as she never asks his name. The wedding music known formally as the bridal chorus has been used in weddings ever since and is more popularly known as here comes the bride.

There are many similarities between the triangle of Senta, Erik, and the Dutchman and that of Finduilas, Gwindor, and Turin. In both cases the women are drawn away from their fiancees by a strong desire to heal the curse of the newly arrived stranger. In Tolkien's stories (Wagner does this too sometimes) the immortal woman who is drawn to the mortal man becomes mortal or dies. Thus Finduilas (along with several other Elven maidens of Tolkien's) fulfills the criteria of the messenger or intermediary who is neither fully mortal nor immortal as seen in the Platonists and neo-Platonists and also in the healing/redeeming Ewig-Weibliche of the romantics.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 13 2014, 11:42am

Post #14 of 19 (371 views)
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Finduilas seems a little shallow to me [In reply to] Can't Post

And she falls for the Best Man Available. Gwindor was a worthy prize while in his prime, but when he showed up as damaged goods, he was kaput in her eyes. Instead she fell for the #2 guy in the kingdom (after Daddy). If a better candidate than Turin had come along, well...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 13 2014, 9:38pm

Post #15 of 19 (365 views)
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your post cracks me up, cg : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
love your wry sense of humor. : )

funny you mention it, but i actually do forget nargothrond a bit... i don't forget turin or glaurung... but nargothrond always seems a bit hazy.

btw, turin +was+ interested in one girl. it's unfortunate that the girl was also his sister. (and yes -- even morgoth would have fallen for him. heck, i think morgoth would have even given turin a silmaril for an engagement ring).

your "fruit fly" analogy amuses, but i think it's also fairly spot-on. that's rather how it would seem to an elf, no? especially since elves wed for life (except for finwe). poor nerdanel. poor aredhel.

yes, good point about edain stormcrows. a good bouncer would have solved all.

re the curse and finduilas's attraction to turin.... i spoke in another post of all these curses and fates and blessings being like currents in a river. linger to near one, and you will be sucked along. but you can sort of feel their power, even if you're not quite in them yet. i think finduilas got sucked up into turin's current. but i think there was another current at work.... the current gwindor speaks of (in the next chapter), when he warns turin not to forsake finduilas, for she is the only thing that stands between him and his doom.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 14 2014, 12:53am

Post #16 of 19 (343 views)
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yes, points to consider [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i agree with you, mikah, that a betrothal seems more solemn than an engagement. certainly for elves ('tho as sador pointed out, the laws and customs of the eldar were written after this tale was written). so, like the sons of feanor perhaps, finduilas is bound by a (quasi) oath, and breaks it. in her defense, they never did actually marry. are there doom-ish repercussions from breaking off a betrothal, if one is an elf? tempting to think about, but i think not. i do think elves don't bethrothe lightly, and don't break betrothal lightly.

did finduilas wish to marry gwindor when he returned -- before she got all swoony for turin? it should also be said that gwindor removed himself from consideration, so wasn't it really gwindor who broke off the betrothal? any penalties for him?

i also agree with you, mikah, in your assessment of the devolution of the noldor being able to command their paths. they are being swept up by the doom of mandos.

ulmo did take preventative measures with finrod / nargothrond and turgon / gondolin. so how much leeway did this vala have over the doom of the other vala, mandos? ulmo appeared to achieve some sort of goal in that his forewarning to turgon made turgon welcome tuor, leading to earendil, the sailing to valinor, and the rousing of the valar. but what did ulmo achieve with finrod / orodreth / nargothrond? anything?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


sador
Half-elven


Jun 15 2014, 5:35pm

Post #17 of 19 (341 views)
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No responses? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, in brief:

1. is finduilas tapping into the prophecy of turin in the dagor dagorath? is she the in-universe source of the prophecy that turin will slay morgoth?
I'm not sure of that. Not knowingly, that is. And I note that not long after writing this tale, Tolkien seems to have backtracked from this idea (I'll look up the source when I can). But at the moment, this seems to be Tolkien's intention for the ultimate End. Does Finduilas forsee this End? I doubt it.

2. if so, could this be part of the reason finduilas is drawn to turin, because somehow she senses his exalted place in fate, and this influences her to believe that her love for him may be one of those special elf-edain pairings?
This might be. Could she have sensed in him a kinship with Tuor, and mistook it?

3. finduilas intuits that turin does not care for her in a romantic way. but she loves him anyway. she grieves that she cannot love gwindor any longer the way that she used to love him. is finduilas's love for turin part of morgoth's curse? morgoth's tainted flame beckoning her mothy nature? or is this something that just... "is"?
I do not see Finduilas as a moth!
And I'm not sure it is a part of Morgoth's curse - it doesn't seem to fit his words. I would rather attribute it to Ulmo's love for the House of Hador.

4. gwindor seems to feel morgoth's curse of turin. he tries to warn finduilas. why does he not try to warn orodreth?
Oh, this is a good question!
I actually expect he did, or else Turin did so himself. Both Thingol and Dorlas hear the report that Turin's true identity was known to many in Nargothrond ere the end.



sador
Half-elven


Jun 15 2014, 5:40pm

Post #18 of 19 (340 views)
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Thank you for this discussion! [In reply to] Can't Post

However, it seems that I have answered some of your questions already, and that Mikah has made a discussion of Orodreth a main part of her discussion. So I apologise to you, and will answer in her thread - maybe tomorrow. I see that Rem has already put up the next thread, so I am a week late already.


cats16
Half-elven


Jun 16 2014, 4:55am

Post #19 of 19 (352 views)
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Same here, sador. [In reply to] Can't Post

I seem to catch up even after you've responded, so know that at least one person sees your posts. Wink

My goal is to be caught up by the end of the coming week.

 
 

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