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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
New Line Cinema Sued by Tolkein Estate (over film profits...)
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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 18 2008, 3:32pm

Post #326 of 342 (338 views)
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*blushes* gee, a.s. :) Thanks! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 18 2008, 7:03pm

Post #327 of 342 (340 views)
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Just having fun stiring the pot! [In reply to] Can't Post

It couldn't resist throwing in some funny controversy in this thread. I knew what you meant. AngelicEvil

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Annael
Half-elven


Feb 18 2008, 8:09pm

Post #328 of 342 (341 views)
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what about the Balrog's? [In reply to] Can't Post

wouldn't things have gone a lot better for him if he'd had - wings?


runs away and hides


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Feb 18 2008, 8:09pm)


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 18 2008, 8:20pm

Post #329 of 342 (318 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice! Yes, that is my decided interpretation of the events *grin*

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 18 2008, 8:37pm

Post #330 of 342 (347 views)
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"His will was set [In reply to] Can't Post

and only death would break it."

Sam - Tolkien's "everyman" - "hope unquenchable": the batman, the one who understood fully his place in Middle-earth and accepted it without question, whose loyalty was steadfast, lover of Elves and all things green and growing, who endured much and still remained simple of heart.

We can never fully emulate him, only do our best to try to...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Feb 18 2008, 9:33pm

Post #331 of 342 (316 views)
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*mods up*// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 18 2008, 11:07pm

Post #332 of 342 (325 views)
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Sam [In reply to] Can't Post

Emulating Sam is like trying to emulate Christ in many ways, certainly in this area of setting his mind to serve Frodo.
The suffering servant.
I know many people see Christ in Frodo & Gandalf (also Aragorn if you look at The Return of the King through The Pathes of the Dead)), but to me, despite Frodo's suffering, regardless of the circumstances, it is based in a degree of selfishness (duck, TF), & Gandalf, while he returns from the dead with great shining light, is more like Christ will be in His 2nd coming - the great warrior in victory.

So, I personally see Sam as the most Christlike figure Tolkien created, at least in terms of 'walking it out' on a daily basis.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be to say Frodo & Sam represent 2 aspects of Christ: Sam the suffering servant & Frodo, Christ going to the cross.

Whatever, sorry to babble on so, Blush but it's pretty clear as JRRT wrote, 'This (TLOR) is basically a Christian & Catholic work'..


ArathornJax
Lorien


Feb 19 2008, 12:13am

Post #333 of 342 (320 views)
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Tolkien Estate Lawsuit Online [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a copy of the actual lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate:

http://news.findlaw.com/nytimes/docs/ent/tlknnewline21108cmp.html

Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

H.W. Longfellow




a.s.
Valinor


Feb 19 2008, 12:34am

Post #334 of 342 (315 views)
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I knew that you knew that I knew what you meant [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink
a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 19 2008, 6:32am

Post #335 of 342 (310 views)
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Are you certain?!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.



Are you SURE about this??? Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN AND PROOF POSITIVE? I hate to call loudly, but I have to ask, because the implications are huge. Does it not extend To MGM or TIME WARNER??? If these things are true, it will allay a lot of worries. But. . . "You are sure of all this?"

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Solicitr
Lorien

Feb 19 2008, 1:45pm

Post #336 of 342 (298 views)
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I'd bet on MGM [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

Quote
Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.



Are you SURE about this??? Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN AND PROOF POSITIVE? I hate to call loudly, but I have to ask, because the implications are huge. Does it not extend To MGM or TIME WARNER??? If these things are true, it will allay a lot of worries. But. . . "You are sure of all this?"


The complaint only requests that New Line, specifically, lose its rights: it emphatically doesn't ask that the Estate get them back. This does not and could not affect Saul Zaentz' reversionary interest which kicks in next year: SZ isn't alleged to have done anything wrong.

MGM is already a player, since they own distribution and therefore are probably on the inside track. Time-Warner has a problem in that by owning New Line, they own all it assets and liabilities- including any prohibition on The Hobbit.


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Feb 19 2008, 1:46pm)


ArathornJax
Lorien


Feb 19 2008, 5:10pm

Post #337 of 342 (300 views)
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Estate is asking for distribution and production rights to revert to them, not to NL, Zaentz, or MGM. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Quote
Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.



Are you SURE about this??? Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN AND PROOF POSITIVE? I hate to call loudly, but I have to ask, because the implications are huge. Does it not extend To MGM or TIME WARNER??? If these things are true, it will allay a lot of worries. But. . . "You are sure of all this?"


The complaint only requests that New Line, specifically, lose its rights: it emphatically doesn't ask that the Estate get them back. This does not and could not affect Saul Zaentz' reversionary interest which kicks in next year: SZ isn't alleged to have done anything wrong.

MGM is already a player, since they own distribution and therefore are probably on the inside track. Time-Warner has a problem in that by owning New Line, they own all it assets and liabilities- including any prohibition on The Hobbit.


Yes the TE IS asking for the rights to production and for distribution to come back to them. If you read the entire compliant, it is there. MGM is a player because of the 1969 contract, and if New Line as the successor of interest and the inheiritor of the obligations of the 1969 contract, then MGM would lose its distribution rights. Zaentz would have no rights because they would have reverted back to New Line via his 1999 agreement via Miramax and New Line.

Again, if you read the entire lawsuit, the Estate IS asking for the production and distribution rights to come back to them. The suit traces the 1969 agreement going from Tolkien to United Artists to Zaentz to Miriamax, to New Line. With New Line violating the agreement, on page 12 of the compliant, lines 45-48, the Estate is asking the Court to
1. Terminate New Line Rights which are Zaentz rights, which are MGM rights, which came to New Line from Miramax, from Zaentz, from United Artists.
2. That New Line became the successor in interest to the 1969 contract and assumed its obligation to pay the TE and Harper Collins their share,
3. Thus, since the company (New Line) is in violation of the contract, the rights should now come back to the Estate and to Harper Collins, the legal inheiritors of the two parties in the 1969 agreement. Everyone else loses.

So, the TE IS asking for the rights to come back to them, and they state that they believe they can do this, though New Line disagrees. Thus they are asking the court for a "declaration" on this issue. If the court says New Line is in default, and because of default they award the rights away from New Line they will not go back to Zaentz, they will go back to the estate. New Line is the successor in interest to the original contract and all of its obligations. Failure to pay or to avoid to pay may just be seen as a breach and the rights could very easily be awarded back to the Estate. It is assume then that the TE could sit on the rights, or sell them at a much higher monetary amount then Tolkien sold in 1969.

Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

H.W. Longfellow




Solicitr
Lorien

Feb 19 2008, 6:14pm

Post #338 of 342 (280 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post

New Line is not the sole successor in interest. MGM's distribution rightsd derive from the UA merger and are not dependent on any subsequent deals involving the production rights. Zaentz only let New Line have a limited license, due to expire within the next year, and Zaentz' reversionary interest in those rights was never transferred to New Line and cannot be harmed by New Line's misdeeds.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 19 2008, 10:45pm

Post #339 of 342 (268 views)
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Alright, not to sound arrogant . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Yet I must ask, which if either of you has a degree in Corporate or contract law, or any experience therein. I don't ask to be obnoxious. . . but if you all are going to play with my emotions, I need to see some credentials. . .(Solicitir, for the sake of my heart and peace of mind, I hope you are entirely valid in your assertions. . . but) To quote Galdor. . . "May we not have the proofs?"

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Solicitr
Lorien

Feb 19 2008, 11:50pm

Post #340 of 342 (256 views)
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Be still, your beating heart [In reply to] Can't Post

In the US at least, lawyers don't get specialized degrees, just an all-purpose JD or LLB. In fact the ABA frowns on claiming specializations, which is why you often see that nifty circumlocution 'practice limited to....'

Be that as it may, contract and especially the bizarre world of entertainment law are not in my field- but like all lawyers Contracts was one of the foundation-stones of my education.

So I'll happily concede that there may very well be pecuiliarities of New York statute or precedent I'm not aware of. But in general terms, New Line's conduct can only imperil rights it owns, not rights owned by other parties like MGM or Zaentz. (The law would consider separately NLC's present, time-limited licence, and Zaentz' 'reversion' or right to get them back when the time runs out.).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 20 2008, 8:23am

Post #341 of 342 (631 views)
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And from mine heart a great weight is now lifted. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

If what you are saying is correct, and I pray it is. . . well, first and foremost, I still don't think Time Warner is just going to let the rights get away. My bet is they will move to solve all this quickly, even if it means selling New Line and using the return profit to pay of Tolkiens estate.

That said, the rights going back to Zaents, who already has some partnering set up with MGM, at years end, could circumvent both the Estate reclaiming them AND, TW and TE tying up production for years in court battles.

Really, if scripting proceeds on schedule, Saul, MGM and WETA could pick the ball up without missing a beat the moment rights revert to Zaents at the midningt bell of 2009.

Your thoughts, o wise Solicitir, comforting counsellor of my heartWink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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