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sador
Half-elven
May 27 2014, 1:42pm
Post #51 of 62
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Hoping you'll still read this...
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Why did Túrin accept an offer to join the band of outlaws so quickly?
Well, I am sure that he hadn't got much of a choice.
But he does feel an outlaw, just as they are; and he has no way of knowing how good or bad they are (and they aren't all bad). Ulrad is a bad egg through and through, as his name indicates; but the rest aren't really. Maybe Androg is - but he is a fascinating fellow, one of Tolkien's best characters, and I'm sure Turin felt it as well.
I have a feeling that it was written in a way that makes Túrin appear to have some ulterior motive, but what is it?
Perhaps he was trying to establish his own band, and its easier to take over an existing one. He hasn't got any other choice, really - although in some inexplicable way Morwen survives in the Wild for several years.
Actually - he could have gone to Brethil. Or volunteered to join the farmers. Why didn't he? Hmm.
This killing of the Outlaw leader to save a woman only reinforced this notion that he is so different from them, that he still retains some code of ethics or morality.
Not really. Several (like old Aglund) do recognise and remember this code; but in such cases normally it is the ruthless which rise to the top.
And like the more sympathetic Sador, Beleg, Orodreth and Gwindor - Forweg is another foreshadowing of Brandir.
But I think this raises an important query….Why doesn’t he sneak away from them at night?
As you've said, he has got some morality (or notions of honour); and he would not betray his comrades.
He offered to fight them all should they refuse either option. But Andróg, knowing Túrin’s skill at swordplay, saw the futility of allowing such a skirmish, and he knew how bloody the outcome would be.
Turin himself would be likely to die; but some would join him, and this would be an all-against-all fight. Androg is clever, and he doesn't mind being relatively virtuous; most violent people don't.
The question is how much did he think he could accomplish with 50 or so men?
As Nargothrond and Brodda's hall would later show, he doesn't think much in those terms. He is the Norse-saga hero through and through.
When he says this, do you think that this is an implicit way of Túrin saying that he will be the one who tries to germinate this goodness? To try and make these rough men noble again?
I'm sure he thinks so; and also that he is the wrong person for it.
Why did Túrin join the Outlaws? What did he seek to gain? Did he have any end-game plan when he joined?
Well, for one thing they were of his kind. That's important, coming after Doriath.
I hope that I have done a decent job at leading this chapter by all of your standards. I had great fun doing so...
That is the main standard. And we have had fun following it. Thank you!
But seeing that you've concentrated especially on one point - I'll raise another one: What do you make of the daughter of Larnach? Was she completely innocent, or did she court danger? (I know this question is politically incorrect) And what were Forweg and Androg after? It looks like an attempted gang-rape - but then Androg speaks of her asking his own head as a bridespiece. Did they attempt to "merely" abduct her as a bride for Forweg? And what would Larnach have to offer his daughter's saviour? And why did Turin reject it?
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
May 27 2014, 3:47pm
Post #52 of 62
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Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response. You bring up an interesting points about the daughter of Larnach. I always interpreted as they were going to gang rape her, however your point makes me consider it even more. The word: "bridespiece" is one worth considering
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Steven Umbrello is the owner and curator of The Leather Library blog. It is a site which is dedicated to Philosophy, Literature (especially Tolkien), and the Finer things in life.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBBCorps
Blog: theleatherlibraryblog.com
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cats16
Half-elven
May 28 2014, 4:23am
Post #53 of 62
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Turin really seems to embrace the idea of living with his own kin here. In doing so, he also appears to reject much of his experience in Doriath. He says that a mist lies on his memory of Doriath--even forgetting Nellas entirely--but does remember his years back home with his family in Dor-lomin. I think he sees the image he's sought for some time, which is the opportunity to become the man his father once was. He wants to rediscover his past life, with Men akin to him, who he can ennoble to the likes of Hurin.
I do find it somewhat strange how he rejects everything from his years in Doriath. It's said that he learned much of the ancient lore of the Elves, and presumably, their dealings with his ancestors of the House of Beor. Although, perhaps this also reinforced his desire to put order back into the Edain, and return Men to the glory before the Nirnaeth, before the infiltration of Beleriand by more and more Orcs. I sensed a self-comparison to Beren when he met with Melian in an earlier chapter, although she quickly shut down that idea. (Sort of reminds me of movie-Boromir, in a way, in that he wishes to reclaim the old glory of his people; though in a much more subtle, inferred way).
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cats16
Half-elven
May 28 2014, 4:33am
Post #54 of 62
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...to quote Nietzsche again, but I'll hold off on it . Your last few sentences hit the nail on the head. 
It's interesting to consider that, as you say, Turin believes himself to be an outlaw. Being an outlaw, then, can be a matter of perspective.
This is, in other words, not a system like we have today, where as you point out criminals are not exiled in outlawry, but jailed. Prison in the sense that we think of it -- a place to serve a set sentence of punishment and rehabiltation rather than to compel payment of debts or to hold until physical punishment is inflicted -- is, of course, a very modern invention only dating back to Enlightenment times!
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cats16
Half-elven
May 28 2014, 5:18am
Post #55 of 62
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I was just perusing a past RR discussion for CoH, and found this interesting thought on the 'fall' of Turin:
--------------------------------- post by Modtheow, "excessive pride"
Some thoughts on "Pride goeth...before a fall" :
I think that there's a warning about excessive pride even in the first chapter of CoH:
'Ever your aim is high,' said Hurin.
'Over-high, you would say?' said Morwen.
Morwen recognizes that there's something critical in Hurin's comment. Aiming too high is not a good idea, and I'm sure Tolkien must have had in mind the Deadly Sin of Pride. "Over-high" is similar to the Old English word "ofer-mod" or "over-pride" that Tolkien put at the center of scholarly controversies for the last 50 years of so about the Anglo-Saxon poem "The Battle of Maldon" and about which he was very critical himself. Aiming "over-high," having excessive pride -- bound to lead to a fall, as just about every medieval story about proud and glorious leaders will tell you. The medieval image of the Wheel of Fortune always shows how a person can go up, reaching the pinnacle of success, but then the only way forward is to fall to the bottom again:
(That's Lady Fortune turning the Wheel)
Morwen's aiming for the top, a dangerous position, and I think that Turin has similar ideas in mind.
-----------------------------
I know the post is geared more toward Turin's time in Dor-lomin, but since you mentioned his 'fall' (and by chance I came across this post), I thought I'd share.
I like the idea of a wheel turning to symbolize Turin's spinning fate. I think you're right: this is step one atop that wheel (atop of which for him, to connect to my earlier post, lies Hurin--who happens to also be chained atop another object, that being Thangorodrim). I'm likely going too far with that one, but it never hurt to go out on a limb. 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 28 2014, 2:48pm
Post #57 of 62
(220 views)
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“...but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?” - Robert Browning
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 29 2014, 12:19am
Post #58 of 62
(212 views)
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Turin really seems to embrace the idea of living with his own kin here. In doing so, he also appears to reject much of his experience in Doriath. He says that a mist lies on his memory of Doriath--even forgetting Nellas entirely--but does remember his years back home with his family in Dor-lomin. I think he sees the image he's sought for some time, which is the opportunity to become the man his father once was.
**He wants to rediscover his past life, with Men akin to him, who he can ennoble to the likes of Hurin. ** I starred this last sentence - it really strikes a chord with me. Very well stated Cats, and insightful. A great motivation for Turin and one that is most likely subconscious. Which may tie onto the next set of ideas you have here...
I do find it somewhat strange how he rejects everything from his years in Doriath. It's said that he learned much of the ancient lore of the Elves, and presumably, their dealings with his ancestors of the House of Beor. Although, perhaps this also reinforced his desire to put order back into the Edain, and return Men to the glory before the Nirnaeth, before the infiltration of Beleriand by more and more Orcs. I sensed a self-comparison to Beren when he met with Melian in an earlier chapter, although she quickly shut down that idea. (Sort of reminds me of movie-Boromir, in a way, in that he wishes to reclaim the old glory of his people; though in a much more subtle, inferred way). Is that rejection of the Elf way (like his line about being bound, to Mim) underlining his inner voice that wants to find Hurin again? The ideal of a reclaiming old glory and restoring pride is a powerful motive and - as many things in Turin's tale - an honorable one that has the less-than-stellar ending.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 29 2014, 12:27am
Post #59 of 62
(211 views)
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'Ever your aim is high,' said Hurin.
'Over-high, you would say?' said Morwen.
Morwen recognizes that there's something critical in Hurin's comment. Aiming too high is not a good idea, and I'm sure Tolkien must have had in mind the Deadly Sin of Pride. "Over-high" is similar to the Old English word "ofer-mod" or "over-pride" that Tolkien put at the center of scholarly controversies for the last 50 years of so about the Anglo-Saxon poem "The Battle of Maldon" and about which he was very critical himself. Aiming "over-high," having excessive pride -- bound to lead to a fall, as just about every medieval story about proud and glorious leaders will tell you. The medieval image of the Wheel of Fortune always shows how a person can go up, reaching the pinnacle of success, but then the only way forward is to fall to the bottom again:
(That's Lady Fortune turning the Wheel)
Morwen's aiming for the top, a dangerous position, and I think that Turin has similar ideas in mind.
-----------------------------
I know the post is geared more toward Turin's time in Dor-lomin, but since you mentioned his 'fall' (and by chance I came across this post), I thought I'd share.
I like the idea of a wheel turning to symbolize Turin's spinning fate. I think you're right: this is step one atop that wheel (atop of which for him, to connect to my earlier post, lies Hurin--who happens to also be chained atop another object, that being Thangorodrim). I'm likely going too far with that one, but it never hurt to go out on a limb. -Cats16 I love the post you shared here; the idea of the Wheel remind me as well of the comment that Sador makes to Turin about climbing up high and thus the fall being a long way. The scene between Hurin and Morwen gives us insight into each of them; Morwen's pride in many cases seems to be passed on to Turin, which makes sense as the more present parent.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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cats16
Half-elven
May 29 2014, 4:32am
Post #60 of 62
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Is that rejection of the Elf way (like his line about being bound, to Mim) underlining his inner voice that wants to find Hurin again? The ideal of a reclaiming old glory and restoring pride is a powerful motive and - as many things in Turin's tale - an honorable one that has the less-than-stellar ending.
Great connection that you make back to Hurin. It seems like he realizes that as long as he remains attached to the Elven way of life, nothing will really change and he'll live with regret for actions never taken. He even remarks to Thingol, before leaving, about the urgency a Man must have in his life, as he does not have the opportunity for idleness that an Elf may have.
And everything also comes back to getting revenge with respect to Morgoth. That, of course, will take small steps (ascensions on the Wheel), which brings us back to his time with the outlaws being step #1 on that path to redemption.
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cats16
Half-elven
May 29 2014, 4:38am
Post #61 of 62
(210 views)
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Couldn't pass on their thoughts on our current topic.
Agreed wholeheartedly with Morwen passing down the pride to Turin. I wonder sometimes if I give too much credit to Hurin in his direct influence on Turin. He seems more important than he really is; he seems more like a mysterious stranger to young Turin than a father. If anything, it's his absence that is even more impactful. Which lends well to Sador becoming the father figure who makes wonderful comments like the one you mentioned.
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