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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 14 2014, 11:58pm
Post #26 of 46
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I always found the part of the story of Saeros' death to be very interesting. And how Turin gets blamed for this. Was it really Turin's fault? Sadly I think it partially was. His pride spurned him on which led to his death. Was this the curse or Turin's pride I don't know. Honestly I think the curse and Turin's pride were working synomously.
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Mikah
Lorien
May 15 2014, 12:13am
Post #27 of 46
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Maybe another thematic link, considering JRRT's connection with he poem?
I believe that you are most probably correct in this. I am certainly not familiar enough with Beowulf to have drawn this conclusion, but while reading it I believe that you are correct in your assumption Brethil!
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Mikah
Lorien
May 15 2014, 12:26am
Post #28 of 46
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Cain was marked by God to prevent him from being murdered. The curse was in essence this, that the land where Abel was slain would never be fruitful and Cain was cursed as a fugitive, a wanderer of sorts. Anyone who would attempt to slay Cain would be cursed 7 times over the vengeance of God. And now that I tell this story and think about it, it does sound remarkably like this part of Turin's story doesn't it? The only real difference being, in Turin's case, his curse was brought on by Morgoth and in many ways self-inflicted. I now wonder if Tolkien did have this in mind regarding Turin.
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Mikah
Lorien
May 15 2014, 1:33am
Post #29 of 46
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You make some excellent points here Brethil and your post really got me to thinking about the relationship between Turin and his foster-parents. You rightly point out that Melian counsels with a mind and heart that knows elves. The speed in which Turin grows up would most definitely be a bit of a culture shock. You also point out that Melian may possibly see Turin as volatile,I think she probably does and in her own perception she would be right. Your post brought to mind that there is more going on here than difference in races. Turin was also brought up with a radically different paradigm than that of his foster parents. Melian and Thingol chose to hide away from the evil which plagues Middle Earth while Turin's father chose confront that same evil. They have extensive differences in attitudes in approaching the world. Our paradigm is so important in the development of our personalities, it shapes our attitude, morality, ethical code, and philosophy. It is in essence who we are and how we relate to the world. While race is a barrier which may be overcome, our paradigm is a barrier in a relationship which often-times can not. What Thingol and Melian may see as prudent, Turin may view as cowardly. What Turin may perceive as valiant or honorable, Melian may see as self-destructive or volatile. Depending on perspective both can be right. Not even certain I am making any sense here, but these are the thoughts which come to mind while reading your post.
You pose a good question as to why Melian did not sense the underlying currents of animosity going on right under her nose. Perhaps, it is one of those instances where she simply did not want to see it? Saeros was a trusted advisor to Thingol, so maybe she had prejudice in respect to him? Thinking more highly of him than she ought. We often do that with those we love, we overlook qualities in them that would be very difficult to overlook in those that we do not love so much..
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Mikah
Lorien
May 15 2014, 1:50am
Post #30 of 46
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"The Basic's of Cursing" by Morgoth, with preface and editing by Sauron. I think you are on to something here. Perhaps Mandos would like to contribute a few words on calling doom upon a whole people? I am certain it would be a best-seller in Middle-Earth. We know that Saruman would want a copy!
With that being said, I agree with you on Turin's personality. I do not really see it being a lot different if raised by Morwen. Some people are just more reserved and aloof in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. I just see Turin as being very out of place in Doriath. A more reserved personality is not really regarded in high esteem among the elves of Doriath, or so it seems. The relationship between Turin and his foster parents does seem formal and stiff, doesn't it? That is a really good description of it Nandorin. There is something about the aloofness that just does not sit right with me. I do not attribute it all to Turin. After all, you point out some excellent examples of relationships which were much warmer and more familiar. Do you think that perhaps they just did not relate to one another well enough to develop that type of relationship?
Turin is a rebellious spirit, isn't he? Prodding along Saeros, because Mablung told him to stop. That is an excellent observation. I had not really put that together before and chuckled to myself when I read it.
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Mikah
Lorien
May 15 2014, 2:02am
Post #31 of 46
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Hi DoL! It is good to see you! I agree with you. I think that Turin did contribute to Saeros death, although he is not wholly responsible for it. This part of the story always calls to my mind the wisdom my father used to impart upon me when I was a little girl. In a little diary I have kept in my mind there are many of my father's clichés. One chapter is titled "Very rarely in life will you get what you deserve, but you will almost always get what you ask for." This is the knowledge my father would impart upon Saeros, if they were both here. In a different chapter, same diary, comes the heading: "There are just some people you don't mess with." Saeros learned this lesson the hard way. My father was full of useful life lessons.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 15 2014, 12:57pm
Post #32 of 46
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I really appreciate your thoughts.
Perhaps you are right, and the desire to good pushed him on further than he was prepared for. He had noble ambitions, but lacked the wisdom and experience to attain the good end.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 15 2014, 1:06pm
Post #33 of 46
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Rem, you have a splendid imagination! I myself had not pictured that. But as I picture it now, I find myself with a strong compassion toward Nellas. The imagery is so lonely, but it is still beautiful.
Really it's not much. It's a literary study technique I've picked up, where you study the text, one sentence at a time, considering the total implications it has on the story and by itself. Some few sentences, more in Tolkien, have meaning and impact so deep that one could live a lifetime inside them, speculating and exploring it and the unvoiced actions that might have taken place because of it. The sub-text of a story is rich in possibilities. The foundation and plan of the story has been laid, but we are allowed to build on the unused space to the side. This one in particular struck me, because Nellas was a character I had not given much thought.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 15 2014, 1:40pm
Post #34 of 46
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What do you think of their approach to raising Turin? Perhaps this is the custom of a King raising his son? What exactly did it mean to be fosterling to the King? During this same conversation Melian counsels Turin “fear both the heat and cold of your heart; and strive for patience if you can.” What does Melian see here? It seems very much a premonition. Does she see his course unfolding or it simply a warning, given his personality? She also instructs him to “Beware of himself.”
It is odd. It seems he is left to roam the woods forever, but that is not the case as he is held in favour of the King, Melian, and others. I personally, would like to hear more of his adolescence. How might that have played out on the Elves? I'm wondering what exactly is the Elven Method to Parenting? Maybe they let their children wander in a safe environment, counting on them to 'sow their wild-oats' and figure out what is right, in time-- somrthing Elves had a surplus of. Maybe this explainss the reason that younger Elves were the ones who married, had children, and did all sorts of 'hasty' things? Maybe at about 300 years or so, the 'grandfather gene' kicks in and they all become wise, reserved, and feel the urge to sit still for long periods of time?
Also, I note that much of this counsel comes from Melian, but she credits Thingol with the valuable advice. Thingol seems to have the practical advice-- what to do now--, and Melian the more abstract-- how to plan for the future. She seems to depreciate herself here, and extol Thingol, at least that is how I read the interview. What are your thoughts?
How accountable for Saeros death do you find Turin? Is he guiltless in all of this and are his reactions appropriate? Mablung believes that “some shadow of the North” has reached Doriath. Is he correct? Has the curse indeed followed Turin to Doriath and also touched those that dwelt there? Who ultimately is responsible for Saeros’ death; Turin, the curse, or Saeros himself? Also what did Saeros intend when he confronted Turin? Did he seek Turin’s own death in the encounter?
Turin is definitely responsible, though I'd also say, 'justified with extenuating circumstances'. He did not intend to kill Saeros, but his prank went too far. He had a malice toward Saeros, but not extending to murder, but die he did. What level of culpability he actually had was a matter for the Elven King to decide, but he did not submit himself to judgement-- his pride got in the way, again. By refusing to be judged, he made his case that much worse; now he could not be pronounced innocent, and I wonder if Turin ever fretted over it. Did he lay awake wondering if he was actually a murderer? A royal decision might have helped give him closure.
If you bring in Saeros' intent, you could even call it self-defence, at a stretch, with a bad decision tacked on. Somehow I think Turin would be acquitted, as I do not see the amount of legal wranglers and hounds in M-E that would argue over a single point, as we have in ours. 'Served him right!' seems to be Mablung's sentiment-- a more rough justice.
Was this an act attributable to Morgoth? I'd say yes, only in so far as Morgoth is the diabolis of Middle-Earth--the source of evil. Is the curse at work? Again, I think that Doriath is shielded, but then again I have my suspicion about the quality of the curse. Truly is on were virtuous enough, they could escape any evil peril, and the possibility for a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' (as Steven Umbrello posited in his paper) is too strong to deny. I'll repeat my theory that every time something went wrong in Beleriand, there would be a tendency to blame Morgoth--after all it is easier on the ego than admitting personal fault. Feanor stubs a toe? I can see him say: Morgoth that hurt!!
Is Melian justified in being concerned here? Does the heart of the crafter indeed dwell in the sword? Does the sword influence the later fate of Beleg? Does the sword itself, contribute to the later events of the story?
Whenever a Maiar speaks, I'd listen. (except for Saruman) I think she is meant to have foresight here, serving the dual-purpose of foreshadowing and establishing her position as 'wise'. It adds drama and the 'I-told-you-so' effect to the later occurrences, making her seem wise the whole way through. I don't actually think it was that way, but it does serve a literary purpose. I think that Melian had these intuitions of foreboding and despair, not definite, but tangible enough to give pause to the wise. She is proved right later, but is this another self-fulfilling prophecy
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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sador
Half-elven
May 19 2014, 2:18pm
Post #35 of 46
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Fair enough. But "a stranger"?
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I'm not sure what I'd feel as a mortal, though, being counselled to be patient by an immortal. maybe something beginning "well, it's all right for you..."
Yes, I know this is nowiz' observation...
I just have to point out that this point is argued later in Nargothrond, when Turin overturns Gwindor's counsel.
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sador
Half-elven
May 19 2014, 2:30pm
Post #36 of 46
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is that Tolkien just needed to showcase Melian's wisdom, so every time something happens she has to point out the wise course. But as it always is ignored (after all, the outlines of stories were fixed already) she seems both ignored and ineffective. And this case is a real blooper indeed.
Melian for sure isn't "wrapping up her presence"; not unless you want to flatly contradict the description of her feelings after Thingol died in The Ruin of Doriath. You can, you know - that part is almost certainly not penned by JRRT, but by Christopher and/or Guy Kay - but I personally find it very effective and convincing (with all due respect to Brethil). She just has partial vision, that's all.
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sador
Half-elven
May 19 2014, 2:34pm
Post #37 of 46
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For an immortal like Beleg it is the vitality of this monumental but brief flame that is Turin that draws him in over and over to his doom.
And isn't it exactly the same as Hurin's words comparing Lalaith to an elf-child? Just as fair, but more precious because it is briefer.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 20 2014, 1:02am
Post #38 of 46
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Melian's sight and Norse legend
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Pun intended! Okay, okay it is admittedly a bad pun, but a pun nonetheless!.
If the sword is so dangerous, I wonder why Melian didn't get rid of it before or flat out refuse to let Beleg take it. By the way, why doesn't he pay more attention to his queen? It's one thing for Thingol to routinely ignore her advice, but even her subjects?
Melian is traditionally foresighted. Does she not see that the family of Hurin will ultimately deliver the Nauglamir to Thingol which will give him a crazy idea about the Silmarils and wind up dead? Or is she wrapping up her presence in ME, as Brethil says?
For the life of me I can not figure out why Beleg ignored Melian's advice about the sword. These are all really good question CG, honestly they deserve their own thread. But I am at a loss to answer any of them. Does anybody have any ideas here? Brethil perhaps? I am most certainly stumped here.
Ahh the character of Melian...I was reviewing some Norse mythology this week, because she rings a bell when I think about Frigga, the wife of Odin. Frigga had the gift of foresight, but rarely shared her visions or her knowledge. She also foresees the death of her beloved son, and creates a circle of life foresworn never to harm her son (in which the lovely, meek mistletoe is overlooked; in a typical trick, Loki uses it to kill Friggas's son Baldur). That oath that Frigga surrounds her son with reminds me a bit of the Girdle...and like the oath, the Girdle fails, through an unexpected and overlooked circumstance (that the blessed Silmaril would bring about Thingol's demise.) So it may be a tenuous connect but it feels familiar: like we discussed with Cain, an ancient tale not 'lifted' but used as flavored perhaps.
So maybe here, the sense of Melian is like one of the Norse queens as well as the archetype of the Fairy Queen: often beautiful, and maybe benevolent at times, but not always accessible or comprehensible? And capable of being undone.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
(This post was edited by Brethil on May 20 2014, 1:06am)
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Wilros
The Shire
May 20 2014, 10:03pm
Post #39 of 46
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I have noticed that a few seem to subscribe to the belief that Turin was immune from Morgoth’s curse while in Doriath, but I had always assumed that it followed him there, as everywhere else, in part based on the following quotes from this chapter:
1. Describing his growth from child to adolescent: “In other matters it seemed that fortune was unfriendly to [Turin], so that often what he designed went awry, and what he desired he did not gain.” Just sounds like the overhanging dark cloud of the curse to me.
2. Mablung’s comments to Saeros after his spat with Turin: “Indeed I think that some shadow of the North has reached out to touch us tonight. Take heed, Saeros son of Ithilbor, lest you do the will of Morgoth in your pride.”
3. And the next line seems to me like it is heavy with Morgoth’s influence: “through the night [Saeros’] malice grew.” Why would Saeros become angrier about these events as the night passed? It seems to me like he should have been able to shake this spat off, but that the corrupting influence of the curse is at work here.
From these sections of text, I understood that the Curse was still at work in young Turin’s life through his stay in Doriath. Though I find it easy enough to postulate that Melian could have some impact in dampening it’s effects, I just don’t see her providing Turin with complete protection from it, and think these quotes lend credence to that idea. Have I missed something that makes others see this differently?
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Mikah
Lorien
May 20 2014, 10:46pm
Post #40 of 46
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Hi Wilros and welcome to the discussion! I do not believe that you have missed anything. It is simply a matter of perspective. You make some excellent points here, there are indications that things are a bit awry in young Turin's life. I agree with you in that I do not see Melian providing complete protection for Turin. I just do not believe that the defensive power of a maiar would be strong enough to completely confound the curse of a valar. Now I do understand that part of Morgoth's power was dissipated through all of Middle-Earth at the time, but he is still Vala and was at one time the mightiest of them. So I do not see the curse completely thwarted during Turin's time in Doriath. But, this is just my opinion and there are certainly those on this board who understand the mechanics of Morgoth, Melian, and the curse better than I. Just tossing in my two cents!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 21 2014, 2:53am
Post #41 of 46
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Welcome to the discussion!
As one of those who thinks that the Curse had minimal overall effect, (Maybe I just like to blame Turin? IDK! ) there is definitely much to be said for both sides.
I'm sure the way you see the Curse acting, even in Doriath--The Guarded Realm-- adds to the drama and dark epic of the tale. It is an essential element in the tragedy, and the seeming irresistible effect it has, amplifies the sympathy we have for the sufferers.
OTOH, you could say that Morwen, Hurin, Thingol, and Melian were poor parents, or that circumstances conspired to twist Turin at an impressionable age. I can only guess the effects that such experiences might have on a prepubescent boy.
Sadly, I lack time to say much more, but 'Thank-you' for your thoughts!! This story is rich with detail, and simple interpretation is just not possible due to the quality of the work. Cheers Professor! You had a winner here!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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sador
Half-elven
May 21 2014, 3:03am
Post #42 of 46
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Yes, for sure the curse (whatever it is) does not sleep. All that Melian can do is to keep Turin himself hidden from the Enemy; but as Gwindor later says, the curse lies not in Turin's name, but it Turin himself (a fascinating topic in itself).
However, Turin himself seems to have an extraordinary belief in Melian's power, as is shown in his later assumption that she can keep Morwen and Nienor safe, and perhaps in his very supposition that it is his name which is his bane. This feeling of being protected will add to his later bitterness towards Doriath - Melian surely hasn't failed, therefore she must have somehow betrayed him.
And last but not least - Turin's experience in Doriath leads him, or strengthens him, in the belief that the policy of secrecy is doomed to failure - see Dor-Cuarthol, Nargothrond, Brodda's house.
And just one small matter: it seems that you were copying from Unfinished Tales rather than CoH. Which doesn't matter for our subject.
Welcome and enjoy!
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sador
Half-elven
May 21 2014, 9:42am
Post #43 of 46
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Full answers, al last - part I.
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Do you attribute these personality traits and misfortunes to curse personality, or circumstance?
Bad masters. "all that he designed went awry" - that's what comes out of apprenticeship to Sador!
But seriously, controlling one's own strength is something ant craftsman should learn early. It seems like the teachers in Doraith were only used to elf-children, and could not adapt to Turin's being different. Neither could Beleg, by the way - nor Finduilas.
I interpret much of Turin’s childhood as lonely, would it have been as such if not for the curse of Morgoth?
Very likely. But we did see that in Dor-Lomin before the War as well.
In Tolkien’s description we see Turin as a bit of a loner, very somber in spirit and attitude. Was this also due to the curse or do we see this same sort of personality before Hurin’s departure?
We do.
What exactly was Saeros problem with Turin? Was it due to a general prejudice against mortals or was it toward Turin specifically?
People here seem to love tagging Saeros as a racist. Perhaps he was one; but one could only say that with a bit more racial prejudice, Nargothrond would have survived.
Could jealousy toward Beren have played a part in this?
According to the CoH text, it for sure seems so.
But in the version printed in UT, Saeros is described as a Nandorin elf. In that case, he was a relative of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand - which according to The Silmarillion were apalled by the incoming fathers of Men, and asked Finrod to take them away. And Turin seems to be just like the barbaric Man-stereotype.
On the other hand, Beren and Luthien did live among the Laiquendi when they returned from Mandos; so perhaps it was precisely Turin's dissimilarity with Beren which Saeros resented?
Or, could this consideration be a reason for Christopher Tolkien to omit this paragraph from CoH?
It seems to me to be a bit juvenile to hold a grudge against a child.
Unless you believe in heredity, or in personality traits being genetically transmitted.
Especially considering that Saeros is supposedly wise enough to be counselor to a King.
Meh.
So was Turin in Nargothrond.
What are your thoughts on Seaeros?
An interesting point to consider is his name.
In The Book of Lost Tales he was called Orgof, and this name presisted thoughout the evolving versions up to The Grey Annals. When writing the Narn, Tolkien decided to use the name Saeros, and later wanted to return to Orgol, which Christopher reluctantly did not adopt here, as he felt that after the Sil and UT it was too late to make this change.
What to make of this?
For one thing, I think that using "Orgol" when one of Turin's outlaw companions is called "Orleg" is a bit difficult. I wonder if Tolkien would have changed Orleg's name, of if the re-naming of Saeros was just a passing idea he would have rejected?
Also, "Orlog" sounds uncouth for an Elf, like the early name Rog (from the Fall of Gondolin) does. It sounds more like an Orkish name; on the other hand, "Saeros" sounds like Maedhros, Aegnor or Daeron.
On the other hand, in the later version which was printed in CoH, Turin's words to Mablung "It was orc-work earlier; this is only orc-play" do sound powerful if the earlier work was Orlog's; while the UT version "orc-work in the woods for orc-words in the hall" would sound a bit odd in that case. "orc-work" with its heavy alliteration works when it can be called Orleg-work; in the UT version the "orc-work" is Turin's.
However, at least Christopher removed the name of Saeros' father from the CoH text - bye bye Ithilbor!
And another note: did you notice that Saeros called Turin a wood-wose? Did you ever picture Turin as the forerunner of old Ghan-buri-ghan?
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Mikah
Lorien
May 22 2014, 12:38am
Post #44 of 46
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I am glad you responded! You know that is interesting. I had always contributed Turin's apprenticeship kind of going awry to the curse. It had not occurred to me that perhaps the teachers in Doriath including Beleg, could not adapt to Turin. That is a really good point. He is very out of his comfort zone in Doriath and they probably are not exactly comfortable with him. And believe me I know, that one teaching style does not fit all. Thank you for a different perspective on this.
I am really torn as to what exactly Saeros grudge was against Turin. I honestly do not know and that is why I posed the question, I really wanted all of your guys take on it. I do remember in The Sil that the Laiquendi were not happy with the presence of men. If I remember correctly they asked Finrod to take them away or they would afflict them in any way they could. So yes, there is probably at least a bit of prejudice there. However, I also believe it goes a little bit deeper. I wonder if Saeros begrudged Turin a place in Doriath because King Thingol accepted him as a foster son. Perhaps he saw it as another mortal coming in and upsetting the balance of Doriath, where he held a certain amount of sway.
I really can not wrap my mind around Orgol, it does not roll easily off the tongue. I did find this interesting though and looked up the information that you speak of. It seems that Orgol is a pun on Orgel, meaning pride? Is this correct? If this be so, then maybe Tolkien is giving us a clue into the nature of Saeros, by his choice of name. You have a great eye for detail, thank you for that.
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sador
Half-elven
May 22 2014, 4:59pm
Post #45 of 46
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Due to the lack of time.
What do you think of their approach to raising Turin?
I suspect that Thingol simply was unaware of the speed in which Men grew.
What exactly did it mean to be fosterling to the King?
Enough to annoy Daeron and Saeros.
What does Melian see here? It seems very much a premonition. Does she see his course unfolding or it simply a warning, given his personality?
I've mentioned before Gwindor's reading of the curse. I can give Melian no less credit.
Would the curse placed upon Hurin’s family spare Turin from a death that would kill ordinary men?
This is the implication, yes; although the mechanics of the curse are always unclear.
Does this in any way unknowingly contribute to Turin’s inarguable courage?
Brushing with death and being saved? Of course.
The curse itself? Hmm... I tend to doubt it. The curse works with what materials it has, but does not give Turin traits he does not have. And Morgoth couldn't break his father's courage.
How accountable for Saeros death do you find Turin? Is he guiltless in all of this and are his reactions appropriate?
Tolkien assumes that the provocation was enough, as does Thingol.
I wouldn't call Turin guiltless, though - he does agree that he is indulging in a bit of orc-play, and his hounding of Saeros heralds the theme of rape, a surprising one in Tolkien (see Larnach's daughter, the death of Finduilas, Nienor) - even if it never actually happens.
Who ultimately is responsible for Saeros’ death; Turin, the curse, or Saeros himself?
Mostly Saeros himself; but secondly Turin.
Also what did Saeros intend when he confronted Turin? Did he seek Turin’s own death in the encounter?
This is clearly the implication. He might have wanted to hunt Turin out of Doriath, buit I do not think so. He probably was thinking that he can somehow avoid detection - after all, it would be long before Turin would be missed in Dimbar! And he probably could have carried him to the river.
But he was an idiot not to check if there were witnesses around; Doriath elves do tend to sit in trees, and there might always be a Nellas somewhere.
Is Melian justified in being concerned here?
Sure.
Does the heart of the crafter indeed dwell in the sword?
Probably. In the early versions, when dwarves were considered to be masters of perfidy, Telchar's knife snapped and betrayed Beren in Angband; according to the later versions, we can assume it to be influenced by Curufin, or by Beren attempting to achieve more than he promised Thingol.
And there is also Feanor's words to the Valar regarding the Silmarils.
Does the sword influence the later fate of Beleg? Does the sword itself, contribute to the later events of the story?
Probably; although the idea that it spoke dark words to Turin at times was abandoned.
And I'm still not sure why it had to be reforged in Nargothrond. Gwindor said it mourned for Beleg, which it did call "my master" in the end, and it broke when Turin died.
So did the sword have a conscious? More than its maker?
What are your thoughts on the relationship between Beleg and Turin?
It's an unhealthy fascination.
What did Beleg see in Turin that others did not?
Did he see more than Mablung? I suppose he actually saw less - he saw nothing of Turin at the hall.
Late indeed! Sorry for tasking my time in this way. And thank you!
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cats16
Half-elven
May 25 2014, 6:06am
Post #46 of 46
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Trying to catch up now on lost time (been reading Proust lately, so phrases like that are bound to come up now and again  ), so apologies for my lateness.
I had the same reading of the curse in Doriath as Wilros has brought to our attention. Turin's time there seems very melancholy in its brief description; perhaps it is brief, in part, because there was nothing to tell (this reminds me of Bilbo's stay in Rivendell in The Hobbit; Tolkien states something to the effect of there being nothing worthy of the story to describe.) Not that nothing happened to Turin--he was there for quite some time. But perhaps the culture of apathy several others have described above contributed to this inaction; a lack of agency, which Turin, I suspect, resented heartily. He saw his father's bold actions to save their home, and has been itching to do so ever since the Nirnaeth. Just some thoughts here.
I also find both Saeros and Turin at fault for the events in the woods. Perhaps much would have been different had Mablung arrived five minutes later. Not a great exercise in thought, but maybe an indication that Turin's choice to continue chasing Saeros was influenced by the presence of others. If it had only been the two of them, though, perhaps Saeros would have just tried to kill him again. No use continuing these hypothetical situations further, but I think an important aspect of this chapter is about who is around versus who isn't. If Nellas was not in the tree at that time, Thingol's judgement would not have been changed. If Thingol himself had not been on an Elf-holiday, perhaps the situation in the Hall between Saeros and Turin could have been nipped in the bud then and there. Again, I'll repress this further, since one could go all day with these kinds of thoughts.
I'm also quite puzzled as to why Melian does not act differently to Beleg's sword choice. Maybe differently is not the correct term; rather, more hands-on. The comparison to Galadriel in the TA here in a very interesting one.
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