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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 1 2014, 2:22am
Post #1 of 21
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The Balance of Power in Middle Earth
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How would you rank the Balance of Power in Middle Earth. Should we say the most powerful armies ever or go by which Age they belonged to? Traditionally, we would base Balance of Power on capabilities (size of country, population; GDP, men/women under arms, technology, industrial output). Given that we know very little about the demographics and political-economy of Middle Earth kingdoms, I guess we can extrapolate based on the few details we have from the books (legendary wealth, large militaries, success in battle, weapons' technology, etc.)
Here are my rankings on the most powerful militaries/kingdoms in Middle Earth during their heyday. - Angbad (First Age): under Morgoth
- Numenor (Second Age): under ar-Pharazon the Golden
- Gondolin (First Age): under Turgon
- Nargothond (First Age) under Finrod Felagund
- Mordor (Third Age) under Sauron
- Lindon (Second Age) under Gil-galad
- Arnor/Gondor (Second Age) under Elendil and sons
- Hithlum (First Age) under Fingolfin/Fingon
- Khazad-dum (Second Age) under Durin III
- Doriath (First Age) under Thingol
- Erebor (Third Age) under Thror
- Eregion (Second Age) under Celebrimbor
- Angmar (Third Age) under Witch King
- Gondor (Third Age) under Turambar
- Gondor (Fourth Age) under Elessar
Honorable mentions
Rohan (fourth age under Eomer); Erebor (third age under Dain); Dale (third age under Bard); Orc kigdom of Gundaband (third age); Belegost and Nogrod (first age); Woodelves under Thrandruil (third age); Harad (third age during War of the Ring);
(This post was edited by HeWhoArisesinMight on May 1 2014, 2:25am)
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Matthias132
The Shire
May 1 2014, 3:31am
Post #2 of 21
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I have to agree with your list
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I would have to reread the books, but I have to say that your list appears to be quite accurate. I don't know if you want to add the armies of the Vanyar, who utterly destroyed Morgoth. I would have to assume it was a pretty massive force. I think that should at least be in there.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
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squire
Half-elven
May 1 2014, 3:40am
Post #3 of 21
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Could you help us out by giving at least the top level breakdown of values that you assigned to the factors you named: "legendary wealth, large militaries, success in battle, weapons' technology, etc."? For instance, what were the numbers for the two Gondors at the bottom, compared to the Gondor in the middle?
Now, wasn't there a point in the Third Age when Gondor basically did what it wanted, the way it wanted to -- i.e., ruled the roost? I don't remember the kings' names but it was the peak of Gondor's power. I didn't think it was under Turambar, who is your choice for a Third Age Gondor power equation that seems to come in mighty low indeed.
I wonder what scores you assigned to Mordor (Second Age) to make it come in below #15. I thought I remembered it rolling over all of Eriador and nearly destroying Gil-galad (#6) before Numenor (1600 years before it was #2) stepped in.
It would be nice also to see more specific dates in lieu of the term "during their heyday". After all for much of the Third Age "Mordor Under Sauron" was actually "Mordor Under Gondor", but in the beginning it resisted the Last Alliance for a decade whereas in the end, 3000 years later, it was beaten by a far weaker alliance in less than a year.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 1 2014, 10:14am
Post #4 of 21
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I think you might be referring to Atanatar Alcarin
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Son of Hyarmendacil around 1000 in the 3rd age were men said precious stones are pebbles in Gondor for children to play with. The men of Anduin acknowledged his authority, the kings of Harad did homage and Mordor was desolate but watched. Gondor did seem a mighty kingdom at the time. Don't worry, I don't know all this of by heart, I did have to look it up!
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 1 2014, 1:22pm
Post #5 of 21
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Yes, Hyarmendacil was a great king who conquered the south, but Turambar expanded Gondor as well by conquering the East. Since we don't have any data on the kingdoms at that time, we would just be speculating on whether Gondor reached its zenith under one or the other (or several other possible kings). You could make a case for both kings being the most powerful in Gondor's history, so I won't argue the point.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 1 2014, 1:24pm
Post #6 of 21
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The rankings are just for Middle Earth
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Obviously, the Valar and the armies in Valinor would be the most powerful in all of Arda, They are gods, after all 
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 1 2014, 1:38pm
Post #7 of 21
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Could you help us out by giving at least the top level breakdown of values that you assigned to the factors you named: "legendary wealth, large militaries, success in battle, weapons' technology, etc."? For instance, what were the numbers for the two Gondors at the bottom, compared to the Gondor in the middle?
I admit these metrics (capabilities) are somewhat arbitrary. However, there is no almanac of Middle Earth kingdoms, so we have to extrapolate. Much of it is gut feeling and anecdotal. Melkor's rule over Beleriand in the latter part of the First Age was almost absolute. He vast military forces (though not quantified), conquered much of the territory and had some serious capabilities (not only large armies, but he had dragons, too).
Numenor at its Zenith challenged the Gods and forced the most powerful being in Middle Earth at the time (Sauron) to kowtow to its king. The armies of Middle Earth were no match for the Numenoreans and Sauron's armies fled from them. They conquered land far and wide and had the greatest Navy in the history of Middle Earth. The Valar had to call upon Illuvator to stop them from invading. That is pretty bad-ass to me LOL...
If it were not for the betrayal of Maeglin, Gondolin likely would have lasted for a much longer time. From anecdotal evidence, the country had the best of the Noldoran technology (weapons and buildings), and was greatly defended by some of the greatest generals or captains of the day (Ecthelion and Glorfindel).
I'd love for others interested in this topic to weigh in on what factors they would use to rank power in ME, given we don't have much data to analyze. But think my list is probably a good start.
It would be nice also to see more specific dates in lieu of the term "during their heyday".
This is a good idea, but now you are asking me to do some homework. I didn't want this to turn into a research project, but if I get time, I will look into the specific dates of rule to make it more specific. It would be worth the while.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 1 2014, 1:43pm
Post #8 of 21
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I wonder what scores you assigned to Mordor (Second Age) to make it come in below #15. I thought I remembered it rolling over all of Eriador and nearly destroying Gil-galad (#6) before Numenor (1600 years before it was #2) stepped in.
You are correct, Mordor (Second Age) should probably be in Top 5 or at the least Top 10. This was an oversight.
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Nerven
Rivendell
May 1 2014, 1:56pm
Post #9 of 21
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would also mention Lothlorien and maybe Rivendell for the third age. Both their leader are ring bearers and of Lorien is even said that no one could enter this realm, except for Sauron in person, an army Lorien also had, maybe not the biggest army, but with Galadriel it would be impressive.
(This post was edited by Nerven on May 1 2014, 1:57pm)
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Toros
The Shire
May 3 2014, 4:06pm
Post #10 of 21
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I like your rankings. I'm interested in your placements of Erebor under Thror and Gondor under Elessar. Is your ranking for Erebor mostly based on how much wealth they have, above other factors? And I would have thought Gondor under Elessar would have ranked above nder Turambar, as they both conquered the East-lands but I always got the impression Elessar's Gondor was much more productive and secure..
This is just me looking at tiny things though, I like the idea and your list
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 5 2014, 4:29am
Post #11 of 21
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for ranking Doriath as #10? Considering how long Thingol and Melian defied Morgoth, I would have put it around 5 or 6.
This is a really interesting idea, though. I've never really thought about it before.
TolkienBlog.com
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 5 2014, 11:01am
Post #12 of 21
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I was thinking the same thing. Thingol contemplated war with Nargothrond to get Luthien back, and that was Nargo + the Curufin & Celegorm's people. But he wouldn't dare attack the other sons of Feanor, because he lacked the strength. So I'd put him above Nargothrond, at least.
Thanks for making up this thought-provoking list, HeWho.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 5 2014, 12:46pm
Post #13 of 21
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for ranking Doriath as #10? Considering how long Thingol and Melian defied Morgoth, I would have put it around 5 or 6.
Thanks for the response Idril. As I've mentioned above, it was difficult to rank these kingdoms given we know so little about them. One reason I ranked Doriath so low (relatively) was because it rarely went to war, which in some ways could be a strong indication of strength (or weakness, depending on how you look at it). Obviously, the Girdle of Melian kept Doriath veiled in secrecy, so it was hard to attack Doriath, so the kingdom had little need to defend itself in battle. However, since Thingol rarely went to war, it is difficult to gauge the strength of Doriath.
The Elves of the Blue Mountains sacked Doriath once, and the Sons of Feanor destroyed it in the second kin-slaying. Given that Thingol and Melian were the rulers of Doriath in and of itself might make it probably on of the most powerful kingdoms of all time because he is one of the three leaders of the Eldar and she was Maia. That is a powerful combo that can stack up against anyone else. But in terms of the fighting force, there is little to go on from Doriath other than Beleg and Mablung, who were great warriors in their time.
Hope that explains some of my thinking
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Wilros
The Shire
May 6 2014, 1:08pm
Post #14 of 21
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Hello, first time poster here, but I thought this was an interesting exercise and wanted to chime in. Apologies for the long post in advance!
I think it maybe helps to clarify the debate a bit if you frame it in terms of: pick any 2 kingdoms off the list, and arbitrarily set them against each other in all-out warfare. Not a one-and-done battle where whomever has the bigger army immediately wins, but a sustained conflict in which population, wealth, craft skill, etc. all come into play. Which kingdom and capital city would be left in ashes and which would be victorious? In this scenario, the kingdom higher up on the list should be capable of beating any one of the kingdoms listed below it.
Based on that understanding, I would have a few tweaks to offer:
0. Utumno (Years of the Trees): under Morgoth – I presume you have left this off the list because you wanted to limit the list to kingdoms in the 1st Age or later, which is fine. Just thought I would mention this one as well since it was situated in ME. If included, I think it would out-rank Angband, if only because it took an army of Valar to defeat Utumno, and only an army of Maiar to defeat Angband.
1. Angband (First Age): under Morgoth – Assuming Utumno is being left off the list, I fully agree with you that Angband is #1. This is the easiest choice to make. Would beat any kingdom in this list 1v1, or even 1v3, 1v4 or possibly more.
2. Numenor (Second Age): under ar-Pharazon the Golden – Also agree with you, and still a fairly easy choice: massive wealth, huge army and navy, skilled workers, able to exert control over almost all of Western Middle Earth.
Now the choices are no longer slam dunks.
3. Gondolin (First Age): under Turgon – Gondolin certainly was made to last and very easily defended, but its offensive capabilities don’t seem great to me, and I wonder if their limited land/resources would have been a factor in an all-out war instead of the hunker down and see approach they took in the First Age? However, I will agree with you and place them third because of the colossal effort it took for Morgoth to actually destroy this kingdom (huge army, many balrogs, surprise attack & treachery).
4. Mordor (Second Age): under Sauron. New entry to the list. As noted by Squire and acknowledged by yourself, this kingdom was a force to be reckoned with and nearly succeeded in domineering ME (it likely would have if not for #2 Numenor).
5. Arnor/Gondor (Second Age): under Elendil and sons – I bumped this one up a couple of spots in comparison to yours. I think their greater population, larger control of land, and high skill level craftsmen having just come from Numenor gives them the edge over the kingdoms below it.
6. Mordor (Third Age): under Sauron. Mostly the same spot as where you had it, except I ranked the united Arnor/Gondor above, as I think Tolkien mentions several times that both Mordor and Gondor in the TA were less powerful versions of themselves in the SA.
This is where I find things get to be more difficult and hair-splitting…
7. Doriath (First Age) under Thingol – I have ranked it quite a bit higher than your list did. Obviously the Girdle of Melian was a great defensive tool. Also, Thingol was considered very wise, and Melian even more so. They also had some capable warriors, such as Beleg. However, ranked lower than the kingdoms above because once the Girdle of Melian was removed, it was sacked by what seems to be not a great force of Dwarves, and also like Gondolin, it didn’t appear to have much of an offensive fighting force.
8. Hithlum (First Age) under Fingolfin/Fingon - The same as your ranking. Seat of the High King of the Noldor, able to hold out against Angband for many years, and later, with the added strength of the House of Hador, a very formidable kingdom.
9. Lindon (Second Age) under Gil-Galad – I flip-flopped with Hithlum, but really seems like splitting hairs to me. I ranked a bit lower mostly because I think Hithlum was made up of more Calaquendi (High Elves) Lindon would have been (I may be wrong on that).
10. Nargothrond (First Age) under Finrod Felagund – The biggest change compared with your list. I don’t think they could have beaten any of the kingdoms above 1v1, as its strengths seemed to be in secrecy and in guerilla-style warfare. Also, all that it took to defeat Nargothrond was 1 army of orcs and a wingless (though formidable) dragon, a force I think the others above could have stood up to better. Granted, that was after the bridge had been built, but I think the bridge only made the defeat quicker, and that Nargothrond’s fate would have been the same without it.
Then it seems like a bit of a drop-off to:
11. Eregion (Second Age) under Celebrimbor – I bumped up one from your spot based on the fact that several powerful elves lived here, and of course they were able to craft the Rings of Power.
12. Gondor (Third Age) under Hyarmendacil I – I changed only the leader who I believe Tolkien mentions in the LOTR Appendices for leading Gondor’s Golden Age.
13. Angmar (Third Age) under Witch King – I took down a notch as I get the impression from the Battle of Fornost that basically a portion of Gondor’s army was superior to Angmar’s entire army.
14. Khazad-dum (Second Age) under Durin III – I took a few rungs down as they were wealthy beyond measure, but was also destroyed by a single Balrog. Also, would have been very hard to breach all of their defences, but I also think they would have had a hard time mustering the capability to breach someone else’s defences.
15. Erebor (Third Age) under Thror – like Khazad-dum, extremely wealthy, but also destroyed by a single dragon, and limited offensive capabilities. Also, as demonstrated in The Hobbit, could have been susceptible to a prolonged siege.
16. Gondor (Fourth Age) under Elessar (or maybe would have been more powerful under Eldarion?) – not too much detail on this kingdom, but seems like it had a decent population, large control of land, and wise leadership to make it deserving of being on the list.
17. Belegost and Nogrod (first age) – I think the only one of your Honorable Mentions that stands out a bit from the rest. They were mighty in craft, and also able to hold off Glaurung during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and even sacked Doriath. One could argue they should be higher up on the list. But, I left them down here because I’m not sure if they should really be included together as 1 entity, or really as 2 separate kingdoms.
Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. Probably still lots of holes and room for improvement, so feel free to pick away if you like. Thanks for providing the very interesting thought exercise!
(This post was edited by Wilros on May 6 2014, 1:14pm)
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 6 2014, 3:22pm
Post #15 of 21
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Thanks for long and thoughtful response
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I really can't quibble with anything you wrote, Wilros. I do agree with your criteria that pitting the different kingdoms together and predicting who would win a sustained conflict or war is a good way to rank them. The only problem with this is that it would eliminate certain advantages that some would have, e.g., a naval power such as Numenor fighting a guarded mountain power like Gondolin. However, all things being equal, we could divine which powers should win (say in a best-of-five or best-of-seven matchup).
What would be the minor powers of Middle Earth after the major powers?
- Wood Elves under Thrandruil
- Rivendell under Elrond
- Lorien under Galadriel
- Iron Mountains under Dain
- Dale under Bard
- Rohan under Eomer
- Laketown under a news master
- Shire under Thrain Peregrin
At this point we run out of viable powers in Northwest Middle Earth. All that is left is Shire, Bree, Dunland. Maybe Bombadil could be considered a power, but only in the sense he could not be conquered.
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Felagund
Rohan
May 11 2014, 10:32am
Post #16 of 21
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Not much to add to your excellent post and Wilros' brilliant reply, other than a few bits of source material that may help deliberations over the closer calls:
Nargothrond: "...the realm of Finrod was the greatest by far, though he was the youngest of the lords of the Noldor." [The Silmarillion, "Of Beleriand and its Realms"]. Finrod was never the High King of the Noldor, so didn't call the shots in that sense, but had the geographically largest realm of all the Noldor in First Age Middle-earth. The map of these realms in The Silmarillion is good for basic estimates: from east to west, Finrod rules everything between the sea and the Sirion (minus the Falas), and from north to south, a huge swathe of land from the Pass of Sirion across to Dorthonion, and all the way down to the Bay of Balar. I take the point that everything came to grief after one battle (Tumladen), but Nargothrond at its peak, before the Dagor Bragollach ended the Noldorin glory years, must have been a grand realm.
Numenor: Tolkien calls the invasion force that Ar-Pharazon led to Valinor "the greatest of all armadas" (Letter 131). Also illustrative is "Thus Ar-Pharazon, King of the Land of the Star, grew to be the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth." [The Silmarillion, "Akallabeth"]. That explicitly puts him ahead of Sauron, although given what we already know about Sauron's military record against Numenoreans, this merely confirms the pecking order.
Lindon (Second Age): a super-power in its day, to my mind. I posted an essay on this a little while back, pulling together the sources: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=401117;guest=108938281#401117
Gondor (Third Age peak): Wilros picked up on this and here's the quote from Appendix A of LotR: "In his [Hyarmendacil I, r. III.1015-1149] day Gondor reached the summit of its power. The realm extended north to Celebrant and the southern eaves of Mirkwood; west to the Greyflood; east to the inland sea of Rhun; south to the River Harnen, and thence along the coast to the peninsula and haven of Umbar. The Men of the Vales of Anduin acknowledged its authority; and the kings of the Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court of its King. Mordor was desolate, but was watched over by great fortresses that guarded the passes."
There's also a nice line from Imrahil as the Army of the West prepares to march on Mordor: "Surely this is the greatest jest in all the history of Gondor that we should ride with seven thousands, scarce as many as the vanguard of its army in the days of its power, to assail the mountains and the impenetrable gate of the Black Land!" [LotR, "The Last Debate"]. Even though the Reunited Kingdom under Elessar and Eldarion recovered previously lost territory, there must have been a significant demographic divide between the Gondor of Hyarmendacil I and that of the Fourth Age kingdom - with a knock-on effect on the size of the armies you could expect to be deployed. If a 'golden age' Gondorian army could field a vanguard of 7,000, then the main battle host and rearguard must have been many times that - as Imrahil implies.
I like the points raised elsewhere in the thread on criteria, particularly on defensive vs offensive capabilities, and capacity (or desire), for want of a better word, for imperialist expansion. A passing observation that may not stand the test of scrutiny: Tolkien doesn't make much distinction between naval and terrestrial power. The Numenoreans, and the Gondorians after them, are super-powers who simply combine both. The Falas, and their successors in the Grey Havens, are purely maritime in outlook but aren't really counted as 'powers' as such. They just build ships and hold out. Interestingly, Morgoth and Sauron have no truck with the sea at all (Ulmo and all that...).
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 12 2014, 12:54am
Post #17 of 21
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Excellent post, Felagund:
Speaking of Felagund, do you think that it changes Gil-galad's story arc if he one places him in the legendarium as the son of Orodreth rather than Fingon? I think that it would, as he would no longer be high king of the Noldor. There is debate whether he should be considered of the house of Fingolfin or Finarfin, but since I read the Silmarillion and he was the son of Fingon, I have accepted that as "cannon" and wilfully ignore the later notes that suggest he was son of Orodreth (I notice different websites take different positions on this position, with some putting his geneology in the house of Fingolfin and others in Finarfin).
At any rate, I read your interesting post on Lindon. Based on what you have written, I should probably move Nargothond up to No. 3 and Lindon to No. 4 and drop Gondolin to No. 6. I always viewed Lindon as a great kingdom, because although Tolkien never shed much light on Gil-galad's rule, the few glimpses we do get is of a great ruler, maybe the greatest of the High Kings of the Noldor outside of Fingolfin...
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Wilros
The Shire
May 12 2014, 5:12pm
Post #18 of 21
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Thanks for bringing out these relevant quotes to the discussion. It seems to me that this exercise is fairly easy for the 1st few entries, and then becomes more subjective and one can be swayed one way or another with a good argument from someone.
With Narogothrond, you make a good point that Finrod oversaw a large area of land. However, I understood that this was more of a case of Nargothrond having semi-regular hunting parties / patrols sent out through these areas, but that it was a fairly empty land without much of a population in the areas controlled. So I am not sure if having a lot of land nominally under your rule actually adds much to your base of power, other than to give you more ground to give up and fall back to in the case of an invasion? It is interesting to think that Finrod was known as a great friend to the Edain (Men), but he didn't carve out a space in his vast kingdom for any of them to settle into. Perhaps if he would have done so it would have added strength to his kingdom and prolonged its longevity?
I also read your essay on Lindon, excellent work! I share your view that it would have been interesting to have this kingdom better filled out by Tolkien - there are many gaps in our knowledge of it.
I think the one I had the most trouble ranking on the list was Doriath. It's got a few good things going for it: Thingol, Melian, the girdle, even Luthien is obviously quite powerful, Thingol's treasury is referred to as extensive and included the Nauglamir and Silmaril at one point.
However, the limiting factors are also quite glaring: never demonstrated the power to extend beyond its own borders, populated by Sindar and not Noldor, I don't think they crafted much of note (they tended to hire dwarves instead) and ultimately was sacked by a small dwarvish force. In my post above I put it ahead of places like Hithlum, Lindon, and Nargorthond, but I alternate between thinking this is justified and a horrible error in judgment.
Anyway, as I said earlier it is an interesting exercise in thought (or maybe dreaming is a better term!).
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 12 2014, 7:12pm
Post #19 of 21
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Large territory usually means great power...
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But not necessarily. If we look at contemporary history (as well as in the past), we find that the country's with the largest territory tend to be the most powerful: case in point, the United States, Russia and China. However, as you point out, large land mass doesn't necessarily equate to great power. Canada is an example of a country with vast territory but very, very low population density. Other examples include Mongolia.
On the other hand, there are countries with large territories and big populations that nevertheless aren't major powers. Brazil, Nigeria and India fall into this camp.
In the legendarium, Narogothrond might fall into the category of large territory with low population density, especially given the low birth rates among Elves. I would still rank it as one of the more powerful kingdoms of all time, given that Felagund to me ranked only behind Feanor, Fingolfin and Fingon among the Noldorian kings and princes in terms of stature and prowess. It took Sauron in wolf form to slay Finrod.
I would agree that Narogothrond probably had few offensive capabilities, but it might have been similar to the Soviet Union during World War II, which used a primarily defensive posture to wear down the German Wermacht before going on the advance. It was at Stalingrad where the Nazis lost the Eastern war, and from there the Red Army could chase them back across Central Europe.
If it weren't for Turin's folly in building a major bridge over the river Narog, Narogothrond would have withstood the forces of Angbad for quite a while because Glaurung would not have been able to invade its capital so easily.
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Felagund
Rohan
May 13 2014, 9:56pm
Post #20 of 21
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Yes, I've always been partial to Gil-galad being the son of Fingon. This puts him on the House of Fingolfin and makes his claim to the High Kingship all the more natural and grand. The problem you and I, and all the fans of this formulation, have is that after the publication of The Silmarillion in 1977, Christopher Tolkien dug up a hastily scribbled note of his father's, dated August 1965, which sits as the last known word on Gil-galad's parentage. This revealed the The Silmarillion formulation to be an editorial error, and as you observed, Gil-galad thus becomes a member of the House of Finarfin, and is pushed down two generations, becoming the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod. Interestingly, Gil-galad's mother becomes a Sinda (HoMe XII, "The Shibboleth of Fëanor").
This makes Gil-galad's heritage slightly less grand, but even so he's still the only male descendant of Finwë who could realistically claim the High Kingship. Under the '1965' inspired recast, you could argue that Elrond had a better claim, being the great-grandson of the previous High King, Turgon, and also being a member of the more senior House (Fingolfin over Finarfin). However, Elrond, from the beginning appears as junior to Gil-galad, serving as his deputy in Imladris and later as herald in the War of the Last Alliance. Perhaps the fact that Elrond was a peredhel meant he wasn't regarded as a proper Noldo?
All that said, I still find it difficult to move on from the 'Gil-galad, son of Fingon' formulation!
As for Gil-galad's High Kingship in practice - his lasted the longest (at least as far as Middle-earth is concerned - Finarfin was High King back in Valinor), and ruled or guarded arguably the largest territory.
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Felagund
Rohan
May 13 2014, 10:30pm
Post #21 of 21
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on Nargothrond, Ladros and Doriath
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Great points about geography vs demography. Finrod's kingdom may have been larger than that of Fingolfin and Fingon's, but Hithlum does seem to have been the military powerhouse of the Noldor - at least until the Nírnaeth Arnoediad.
On the subject of Finrod and the disposition of the Edain, he did in fact enfief some of them on his lands. Ladros, in the north-east corner of Dorthonion was ceded to Bëor and his descendants.
On Doriath, there's a realpolitik scene that brutally sets out the limits of Thingol's power, in the chapter "Of the Return of the Noldor" (The Silmarillion). After the Noldor return to Middle-earth, Thingol 'grants' them permission to settle in Hithlum, Dorthonion and in the lands east of Doriath, and reminds the Noldor that he is the 'Lord of Beleriand'. The Sons of Fëanor respond in typically harsh fashion: "A king is he that can hold his own, or else his title is in vain. Thingol does not grant us lands where his power does not run". Harsh but perhaps a fair appraisal of Thingol's 'lordship' of Beleriand. He made big claims, but when it came to it he couldn't resist the Noldor any more than he could keep Morgoth at bay, beyond the Girdle of Melian.
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