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demnation
Rohan
Apr 25 2014, 1:20am
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What was Aragorn's tax policy?
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George RR Martin had something interesting to say about LOTR in a recent interview:
Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it's not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question: What was Aragorn's tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren't gone – they're in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles? (It should be said that when Martin says quibble, he means quibble. He has nothing but nice things to say about Tolkien 98 percent of the time.) This got me thinking: It is, perhaps, a testament to Tolkien's work that we can even consider such questions. It also made my think of the time that Tolkien broached this general topic himself: "... while many like you demand maps, others wish for geological indications rather than places; many want Elvish grammars, phonologies, and specimens; some want metrics and prosodies.... Musicians want tunes, and musical notation; archaeologists want ceramics and metallurgy; botanists want a more accurate description of the mallorn, of elanor, niphredil, alfirin, mallos, and symbelmynë; historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor; general enquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad, Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five)." So, now the fun stuff: what gaps in Middle-earth would you like to see filled in? What little tidbits would you like to see? Do you have a particular interest (music, for example) that gives you a different viewpoint of Tolkien's work? Basically, what is that little extra that you would have loved to have seen expanded upon.
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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Meneldor
Valinor
Apr 25 2014, 3:18am
Post #2 of 20
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I'd like to know more about Middle-earth's armor.
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JRRT only gives us a few hints about the state of the craft. Dwarves have mail shirts and sometimes fine wire mesh for their legs, Numenoreans have winged helms, orcs have heavy iron helms and mail, and Imrahil wears a polished vambrace. Is that part of suit of articulated plate armor? Scale mail? Ring mail? Boiled leather? Pot helms with nasals? Full faced great helms? There is a whole world of possibilities for armor!
(Hey mods, can we get a smiley wearing the Dragon Helm of Dor-lomin?)
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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emre43
Rohan
Apr 25 2014, 1:17pm
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I remember watching the interview in which Martin said this
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and I can't help but agree with him. However, I do not feel able to contribute to this thread very much, as Tolkien left no clues as to how Aragorn led Gondor in any detail other than he was a good king. Although he does mentioning riding with Eomer and from memory convincing the Haradhrim and Corsairs to ally with them. Perhaps he also went hunting Orcs with Eomer.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 25 2014, 5:22pm
Post #4 of 20
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It seems to me to express nicely one difference between George RR Martin and John RR Tolkien (and makes me wonder: do you have to have the middle initials 'RR' to write epic fantasy?).
As I see it, Tolkien writes fantasy as if it were legend, Martin writes it as if it were historical novels.
The time has come, the Cultus said, to speak of many things.
Of Aragorn's stance on income tax,
And do balrogs have wings?
And is Mt. Doom too boiling hot,
To reach on eagle wings?
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Apr 26 2014, 2:16am
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Yes, that's very much what I was thinking.
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My take on it was that Martin prefers grounding things with the practical logistics necessary for anything to happen at all.
In Tolkien's work, they are assumed, not emphasized, because his aim is different. But I think you said it best.
Great poem!
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Apr 26 2014, 2:16am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 26 2014, 8:41am
Post #6 of 20
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I think it's this one http://rollingstone.com/...e-interview-20140423
…(I wanted to read the rest!)
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 26 2014, 8:52am
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That dratted Blue Wizard turned up again :)
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My apologies if his doggerel suggested that I think there's anything wrong with wanting to work out answers to 'tax policy' questions. Quite the contrary: it's a good game (and often played well here ) though not one which can often come to definitive answers.
Interesting to think back to the recent Readthrough of Unfinished Tales. Some of the work is this kind of tax code clarification. It seems that I'm not alone in finding Tolkien's efforts on that front both intriguing and curiously unsatisfying.
Hmmm: I think I need to go think this through, & maybe see you next TAS!
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 26 2014, 8:53am)
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demnation
Rohan
Apr 26 2014, 11:34am
Post #8 of 20
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Thanks! And here is another one
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also quite recent. If you are interested. He talks about Tolkien (and other things) quite a bit in this one, as well.
http://www.vanityfair.com/...r-r-martin-interview
And despite his quibbles (or maybe because of them?) I'd say GRR Martin and the Reading Room regulars could have quite a few interesting discussion about Tolkien's work. (And I know it seems petty, but I can't help but feel a bit chuffed seeing such a popular author like GRRM go to bat for Tolkien so often, much less mention him in any capacity at all!)
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 26 2014, 1:07pm
Post #9 of 20
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*looks around suspiciously* Is the secret safe?
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Hmmmm.... Maybe he IS here!! Incongnito, of course. Hiding behind a clever screen name like mine!  Maybe you guys are the reason he can't finish his books except every few years? Maybe he is distracted by the plain awesomeness/craziness that lives here? Maybe he likes the nice environment of equity and camaraderie that prevails here. Maybe he would like to just say 'thanks!'.   Maybe he has a whole Olympic sized pool filled with his favourite snack, blue Jell-o! 
Okay, maybe not....
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Khim
Bree
Apr 26 2014, 1:12pm
Post #10 of 20
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Truth or Fiction and Vice Versa
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I have heard GRRM described as the American Tolkien. I don't think so, not because I disparage his writing skills, far from it, his books are brilliant, but I believe his purposes are dissimilar. I think in most ways A Song of Ice and Fire is more realistic than The Lord of the Rings, but it contains less fundamental truth. Tolkien dreamed of rekindling a mythology for his native land, and I believe he imbued Middle-earth with the ineffable spirit of legends, legends with a moral compass based on his sensibilities. Tolkien's obessions resulted in world building with heretofore never seen verisimilitude, an inspiration to the fantasy writers who came after. To me LOTR has the capacity to teach, whereas Game of Thrones just entertains. I enjoy them both.
BTW I actually believe the world is more like Westeros, perhaps that's why I'd rather live in Middle-earth.
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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Escapist
Gondor
Apr 26 2014, 1:34pm
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From what I have heard from the buzz about Westeros
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it is about equally representative of the real world as Middle Earth. They are just both at two extreme ends of what is really more of a spectrum.
There are "circles" and "communities" that seem to operate either one way or another, but most groups and individuals are somewhere in between. We may be more or less likely to believe our world is more like one or the other depending on which circles we find ourselves falling into. In my case, Westeros reminds me of all the worst parts of the real world that I am currently avoiding like the plague - so of course you won't find me seeking it out in a book any more than in the real world LOL! Those few moments that smack of Middle Earth are treasured, captured on camera if possible, and clung to - at least by me they are.
If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?
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Khim
Bree
Apr 26 2014, 2:03pm
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TMI - Lord of the King (way long version)
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I still occasionally correspond with Professor Flieger. For example we discussed our trepidation regarding the as yet unreleased LOTR films way back when. About a year ago I sent her something, which unfortunately she could not comment on, but it may be of interest to The Fellowship of the Room.
From: Verlyn Flieger
Date: March 11, 2013 8:29:27 AM EDT
Subject: Re: Middle-earth as inspiration...
Dear Jim,
Your discussion is intelligent, and seems perceptive, but alas! I have not read either series (though I did try—unsuccessfully—to read the first volume of the Ice and Fire books).
So I have no thoughts to share with you on these books. they are, as you so nicely put it, outside my experience.
Viva Tolkien!
Verlyn F.
On Mar 10, 2013, at 4:29 PM, Jim wrote:
Professor Flieger,
By circuitous paths you have become my literary confessor. A highly respected mentor to whom I unburden my pitiable thoughts on the great works of J.R.R. Tolkien. As gratifying as this has become for me, I hope it has not become a burden for you.
I am currently revisiting Middle-earth on a journey I have often taken. I guess I come back to it as a happy place, as others return to a favored vacation spot.
Rereading Tolkien has awakened in me thoughts I've had over the last couple of years regarding certain high profile works that are overtly inspired by Tolkien, or have been compared to his work. I am speaking specifically of Stephen King's Dark Tower series, and George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire.
I recently finished the seventh book in King's series, The Dark Tower. I have never been an avid reader of King; most of my knowledge before reading the seven Dark Tower books involved the odd short story found in anthologies, or the occasional novel, such as The Stand, read because it was recommended by a friend. By-the-way, I have intentionally avoided watching all of his many film and TV adaptations, not an easy feat, in order to allow me to eventually approach his work untainted. I am glad I did so, because I enjoyed reading The Stand, and care not if I ever watch it. I have still never seen or read The Shining :)
I found it amusing that I describe my impression of King much as he describes himself throughout this work, a great story teller, whose work lacks substance. As Sam might say of lembas, excellent but not filling.
King provides in forwards and afterwards his thoughts on the origins and intent of his work on the Dark Tower. And he even becomes part of the story as an integral character, which seems to provide further insight into his thoughts about himself and his work (although one must always suspect such sources, and the conclusions one draws from them). To paraphrase King, perhaps in grave error, I believe that he has attempted in The Dark Tower to coalesce his life's work, and leave behind a great legacy, that transcends the sum of its parts. He goes so far as to admit he wants to leave behind an achievement comparable to The Lord of the Rings. As a mortal like us all, and one who was nearly killed in a traffic accident, I think King felt a compulsion to write at least one great work before he dies.
In order to keep this message as brief as possible I will simply list a few observations, rather than properly explicate them. Like Tolkien King incorporates into the Dark Tower stories elements he has developed over a life time. As Tolkien laid the events of his most popular book, on top of the mythical foundation of the Eldar Days he created, King weaves into his epic characters and places that appear throughout his other works. If one can ignore the actual and quite complicated, dare I say again circuitous, paths Tolkien traveled while creating Middle-earth, the result appears to simply be a linear movement from a distant past toward our present. Because of the diverse nature of King's works, including differences in time and place, levels of realism, especially in his depictions of supernatural beings and events, King's integration of his early writings required far more in the way of literary gymnastics. Perhaps the best way to describe his solution is a multiverse, with quite literal doors between universes. I never thought I would say that anything regarding Tolkien's legendarium would seem simple, and I am not genuinely suggesting that, but I hope my point in this regard is clear.
What might be considered a King trope is for lack of a better term, product placement, or the regular insertion of pop culture, people, products, and popular songs into his stories. Among other things in both his commentaries, and throughout the narrative, he gives regular nods to Tolkien. Also J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter books for that matter. Although I think this provides readers emotive points of reference, I think this method can limit a story, rooting it in both culture and time. I have always felt that writers like Le Guin, who so often set their stories outside common points of reference, provide intrinsically more timeless story telling. Because King has so often used this device, I don't think he can get away from it. I think King's use of "product placement" seems expedient to me, perhaps contributing to my overall dissatisfaction with his work.
By his own admission The Dark Tower was slow in developing, and it seemed he was in some doubt about whether he would be able to finish it before he died. As I read King discussing himself and this effort I was often reminded of Leaf by Niggle, and how sad it was that Tolkien left so much undone... King should be pleased that he finished his tale, and the manner in which he managed it.
I enjoyed The Dark Tower series very much, but I am reluctant to elevate it to a height equivalent to Tolkien's masterpiece. Of course, due to my personal bias I hesitate to elevate any work to that height. I will say that King has achieved a significant feat of imagination, and a curious integration of his entire career. And I found it particularly interesting that such a prominent author considered The Lord of Rings an achievement worthy to emulate.
Well, that went on a bit longer than I intended. If you have reached this point I am heartened, and deeply sorry that I have wasted so much of your valuable time.
Before I sign off I should mention the other work I planned to discuss, The Game of Thrones, as it were.
A Song of Ice and Fire is another admirable imaginative achievement. I'll forgo a lengthy discussion at this time, but I will provide a pithy reaction to those calling Martin America's Tolkien. He is not. Brilliant as he is as a story teller, his work falls short to me for the very reason that many seem to glorify it, for the realism they claim he portrays. Lover's of Tolkien regularly refer to the verisimilitude pervasive in The Lord of the Rings, but next to the visceral depictions of sex and violence in A Song of Ice and Fire, Tolkien's work seems quaint, and like a pleasant fairy tale indeed.
Just as I feel King's work would benefit from less product placement, I think Martin's "realism" detracts rather than enhances his epic. I freely admit that I have thoroughly enjoyed the works of both of these authors, but what they lack, that I think Tolkien achieved, was mythic gravitas. In an odd way I think Middle-earth seems more real to me because it is more remote, something on the edge of understanding, just beyond our reach. Perhaps given time I could explain myself, but I think we are both tired.
Do you have thoughts on these works, or are they outside of your experience?
All my best wishes,
-Jim (aka Khim | aka Mim)
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Apr 26 2014, 3:50pm
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Ah! No, not at all. I understood
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that you meant it's simply a different approach on the part of each.
Although I haven't yet read Unfinished Tales, I surmise that Tolkien's efforts concerning practical, administrative types of things may be unsatisfying, because that simply was not his main motivation in his writing, and not the aspect of history ("true or feigned") that he enjoyed. I believe both approaches (or emphases?) are legitimate, and reflect the different temperaments and the objectives of the two authors..
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Apr 26 2014, 4:32pm
Post #14 of 20
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what gaps in Middle-earth would you like to see filled in?
__________________
If I could have some gaps filled in, I would like to see a little more of how people spent their time in Middle Earth when they weren't questing and fighting. The daily lives of the different races and cultures, the trade routes, and the politics between the different countries and kingdoms.
Hop to it, Radagast, we've got dark powers to sleigh.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 26 2014, 10:46pm
Post #15 of 20
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what gaps in Middle-earth would you like to see filled in?
Well, I'm not demnation, but as for myself: I would have liked to see The Silmarillion published within Tolkien's lifetime, to his own satisfaction. A collection of short stories about the various common folk of Middle-earth might have also been a welcome addition to the legendarium.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Gimloid
The Shire
May 1 2014, 4:01am
Post #16 of 20
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I'd like to know how they handled the infrastructure-type requirements of somewhere like Minas Tirith or Gondolin. Where did they get their water supply from? What did they do with the sewage? What about fuel for cooking and winter warmth?
What about agriculture, too? The Shire is very obviously an agricultural area much like rural England a hundred years ago, but what about Gondor and Rohan? The only mention of farmsteads or anything else agricultural in those areas is of the blink-and-you'll-miss-it variety. Elves, too, seem to live in places where outside the season for fruit and nuts there isn't a whole lot of food about, so what do they do the rest of the year?
How much of the landscape outside Moria is natural, and how much is spoil heaps that are now overgrown? Can we have a mine diagram of the place?
Shipbuilding and other maritime technology would be lovely to have more information on. What construction techniques did they use? What kind of rigs and hull forms? How did they navigate out of sight of land? How did they determine longitude? How well did a typical ship go to windward, or handle bad weather? How did they go about naval warfare? What was a Numenorean black ship, a Lorien boat, a Gondorian fishing smack, a grey ship, a Brandybuck rowing boat, a Telerin swan-form racing yacht actually like? Who was the last winner of the Tol Eressea Round-the-Island race and was there a fuss about them using a winged keel? It's a whole world within a world, but beyond the basic fact that ships existed we know pretty much nothing about it.
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demnation
Rohan
May 1 2014, 4:11am
Post #17 of 20
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Whoa! You almost make me feel sorry that I asked this question!
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 This thread was a bit spur of the moment, and it wasn't till well after the edit window had closed that I realized that I'm not interested in such little details myself. (but it's cool that you are!)
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 1 2014, 2:15pm
Post #18 of 20
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Studying my maps, I would say that Lebennin was the primary breadbasket of Gondor, at least where Minas Tirith is concerned; Belfalas would have been the center of Gondor's fishing industry. The region of Anfalas to the west was probably self-sufficient, although the area might have also produced such cash crops as cotton for export. Ithilien likely produced crops mostly in support of the trade city of Pelargir.
My guess is that Rohan was mostly concerned with self-sufficency, with crops supporting individual farmsteads and the capital of Edoras. I doubt that Rohan would have much export beyond horses, sheep, and perhaps wheat. Beer and ale as an export is another possibility.
The only region of Mordor that was fertile enough for the raising of crops and livestock seems to have been Nurn. Khand doesn't look like it could support much agriculture, except maybe in the north.
The lands of the Anduin Vales were fertile, but there was no central government to exploit them other than the settlements of the Beornings and Woodmen, unless the Elf-kingdom of Lothlorien farmed the Lower West Vales. For some reason, I suspect that most of Lorien's agricultural activity took place south of the Celebrant (SIlverlode) River.
Whatever agriculture that the Wood-elves of Mirkwood carried out would have been in the Northern Dalelands adjacent to the Woodland Realm. They acquired meat through hunting within the Woodland Realm and the rest of Northern Mirkwood.
The Dalelands east of Mirkwood that were inhabited by the Bardings would have provided crops and livestock for Dale and trade to Lake-town and Erebor (although there must have been some farmholds as well that directly supported Lake-town). Lake-town's fishing industry would have provided much of its export, especially to Dale, the Wood-elves and the Dwarves of Erebor. I wonder if there were Mannish farmsteads along the River Carnen (Redwater) that traded with the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. Would they have been mostly of Easterling stock? Or would they have been cousins to the Bardings and the folk of Lake-town?
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 1 2014, 2:17pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 1 2014, 8:59pm
Post #19 of 20
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Despite possibly being Gondor's largest fiefdom, Anfalas seems to be a rather unpopulated region. There does not seem to be a single large population center in the entire fiefdom, or even anywhere in Gondor west of Dol Amroth.
Is the region between the White Mountains and the Pinnath Gelin (Green Hills), bisected by the River Lefnui, even considered to be part of Anfalas? It does seem to be part of Gondor, but is otherwise not named. This area is especially lightly populated; one would at least expect to see settlements and farmsteads along the river and the fertile river valleys.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 2 2014, 9:51pm
Post #20 of 20
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I think the closest parallels to Gondor are Byzantium and Rome
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" There was a flat tax on all citizens. Farmers paid an additional tax based on the size and quality of their land and their annual production."
In addition, one would have to consider trade income.
"The village was the demographic unit of taxation, which were broadly speaking land taxes, towns and cities were not treated any different, they were assessed for taxation on the same basis. Indeed most cities and towns were also involved in agricultural production to some degree, with a proportion of urban populations cultivating land either inside the urban boundaries or outside but close to the cities and towns.
The other main source of tax revenue was the hearth tax, basically a poll tax and there were various other taxes, such as inheritance taxes and taxes in trade and what we might call customs duties."
Rome
"The tax rate under normal circumstances was 1% and sometimes would climb as high as 3% in situations such as war. These modest taxes were levied against land, homes and other real estate, slaves, animals, personal items and monetary wealth. Taxes were collected from individuals and, at times, payments could be refunded by the treasury for excess collections."
"By 167 B.C. the Republic had enriched itself greatly through a series of conquests. Gains such as the silver and gold mines in Spain created an excellent source of revenue for the state, and a much larger tax base through its provincial residents. By this time, Rome no longer needed to levy a tax against its citizens in Italy and looked only to the provinces for collections."
http://www.unrv.com/economy/roman-taxes.php
http://labelledamesanssouci.wordpress.com/...he-byzantine-empire/
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 2 2014, 9:51pm)
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