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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 26 2014, 12:16am
Post #26 of 46
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Your not too sure what this means ?
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Simply that the name of the book should be J.R.R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion with additions and changes by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay.
>>>>THIS SPACE FOR HIRE<<<<
Contact Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.
Hole #14, Bywater Pool Road
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Matthias132
The Shire
Apr 26 2014, 6:12am
Post #27 of 46
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Orcs...Is the Silmarillion JRRT's, or Christopher's?
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So we went from the origin of orcs, and few theories and ideas to the validity and purity of the Silmarillion....
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 26 2014, 6:40am
Post #28 of 46
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No one can ever accuse us of being too linear here. //
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 26 2014, 1:56pm
Post #29 of 46
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Sorry if we rained on your thread Matthias
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But it does seem that these longer discussions often end up "off topic"....
You posed some interesting questions and I ended up taking quite a licking! 
>>>>THIS SPACE FOR HIRE<<<<
Contact Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.
Hole #14, Bywater Pool Road
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 26 2014, 4:06pm
Post #30 of 46
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A popular post title - "What was the OP?"
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The creation of the Orcs seems to be all JRRT - and yes, he varied his own opinions, potentially including Men in a later version (in real-life 'later' terms) and I believe in Middle-earth terms as well. The issue becomes which version of JRRT stands most clearly? And of course, later editing plays a significant part in what we see as JRRT's thought process.
In Letter #131 (1951), which can be considered a reliable statement of purpose, he references the "...Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed." This unites orcs and goblins under the same banner, as it were, of creation. In the published Sil, in "The Coming of the Elves," the description of Elves snared by shadows (while living in the twilight - thus relating to your theory) and taken to Utumno is fairly straightforward. "Bred' by Morgoth - of course, that is an unclear term isn't it? But this all seems to point to a clear origin: Elves ensnared in the First Age and corrupted, and 'bred', likely in language describing their multiplying versus their creation.
As I referred to upthread, Arda Reconstructed provides excellent insight into the authorial process. Doug Kane notes, there is a jotting from JRRT connected to this very clear narrative that says: 'alter this. Orcs are not Elvish.". Hmmm. Non-linear did you say CG? The story above - the one used in the published Sil - is a replacement that JRRT seems to have crafted to replace a version in which Morgoth created orcs from stone.
I think this contradicts his philosophical need for Morgoth not being able to 'create' new life, and that power belonging only to Illuvatar - the underlying monotheism, IMO, existing even in sight of the pantheon construct. In Letter # 153 (1954, discussing in large part theological matters) JRRT also says, "...I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodeling them and corrupting them, not making them." As for the source beings, we can consider Elves (if we read the Sil linearly) or Men, as JRRT seems to have flirted with later on: but it was a corruption ultimately, I *think*. That I find to be a unifying idea.
In short (too late) the other story, I think from this theological construct need, of the abducted and tortured/morphed Elves, seems to have replaced the stone-making bit in the Annals. Then JRRT seems to have, at a later point as well, edited the replacement tale out of the Annals as well. Christopher Tolkien was left with a bit of a tangle - a bit of a Gordian knot; and as he did not want to cut it right up the middle, he seems to have chosen a path, proposed by JRRT himself at one point, to present a logical origin for the Orcs.
So we are left with no ultimate answer, I think, of JRRT's 'final' intent. In published works, if we use the Sil as the bedrock, the tale seems clear. What JRRT 'eventually' would have done to reconcile the construct - that I do not know. He may have swung back to this idea - because I'm not quite sure how the others could have fit, without him overhauling such a central construct - that Creation can only be the privilege of the One. In truth I find the published version perhaps the easiest to accept, so in my head-canon, it works on a story and on a complex philosophical level. So the answer you seek Matthias is a mixed one: in seeking clarity of the author's original mind, CT (and Guy Kay) had to make some choices for the whole of the legendarium to exist in linear (there we go again! ) fashion.
Prepare to engage head-canon. 
The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!
**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 26 2014, 4:11pm)
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Matthias132
The Shire
Apr 27 2014, 5:34am
Post #31 of 46
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Brethil, you pretty much addressed only one part of all of my questions, haha! However, you answered amazingly, and I thank you.
Yeah, I knew that the topic was very broad, and could be taken to extremes. I was more just curious of other's opinions.
I think JRRT likes the idea that Melkor could not create himself, and merely fashioned them from something, whether it was Maiar, elf, dwarf, or man. He could have tainted them from anything, I do not think it would really matter what. Also, if orcs were twisted elves or men, I think that in the earlier stages of twisting, they were not as hideous as they are in LOTR. Melkor was still Ainur, and somewhat pure, and most likely looked heavenly in some manner. I think he would have had purer forms of orcs that would have proven to be worthy adversaries of the earlier Elves and Men. Just as the "magic" slowly dies as the ages of Middle Earth progress, so too do the orcs turn uglier, and more imperfect. I think orcs were more impervious to the sun in the earlier days, and as time moved on and the more imperfect they became, the more feeble and less enduring of the sun they became. Therefore, the orcs in LOTR would boast their ability to last longer because they could be of a purer breed, or trained more, etc, I think you get the idea.
The idea of orcs is an amazing concept, and I know we veered off topic, but even that discussion was fascinating. Thank you everyone!
Feel free to post any other theories you have on here.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 27 2014, 12:53pm
Post #32 of 46
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you've touched upon one of the topics i find most intriguing and most problematic in middle-earth: the origins of orcs. (indeed, i posted my own thread on this topic when i first joined torn, the "pity the orcs" thread --- and i still have this mindset.)
ultimately (ulmo-timently?) this is a problem that tolkien never finished working out, either in theory or his tales (published or unpublished). and one of the thorniest aspects is that -- quite firmly throughout his writings -- tolkien insists that only eru can create life. so morgoth and sauron could only take the spark that already existed in other forms and mold it.
orcs as part maia
the problem: maia had no true physical form. they took on physical form like we do clothing, according to their tastes and goals. so there's nothing like maia dna. so what would a maia-orc be? the physical matter (hror) would be wholly from arda. was the original physical vessel elf (a corrupted hror infused with a corrupted maia spirit, or an unblemished hror infused with a corrupted maia spirit)? or was the original physical vessel human (same corruptions apply). or did morgoth take stone, the stuff of the earth, and entice his maia followers into it?
biological rules did not interest tolkien much (he even states in one letter, very clearly, "i don't care.") so even if we are instructed (by tolkien himself) that maiar had no physical form that was innate, we also have to balance that with dior, about whom tolkien wrote that the beauty of three races -- maia, elf, human -- shone in him. but since melain took on (presumably) the form of an elf, dior's dna was only elf and human. but, again, that sort of detail did not appeal to tolkien, and i suspect he got rather tripped up when he tried to wrestle with it, which would probably make it even more unappealing a topic to tackle.
orcs as corrupted elves
whether they are just corrupted elves or corrupted elves combined with stone or maia-orcs, another concept tolkien seems pretty firm on is the unalterable (with a few noted exceptions -- luthien, tuor) fate linked with each race. the valar cannot take away the immortality of elves (nor can they deny humans the gift of mortality). so any orc made from elf would presumably be immortal.
orcs as corrupted humans
parallel issues arise here. if orcs are partly human, if their anima derives from the anima of humans, then they are bound to mortality +and+ the oft-pondered ultimate fate of humans beyond death. perhaps orcs will take their place as singers in the second music, as humans are said to, by some of the wise.
these two core tolkienian concepts trigger much thought-work (both for tolkien and his readers):
1. only eru can create life
2. the gifts of eru to each race (mortality or immortality) cannot be taken away
some of this thought-work deals with biology, in which (again) tolkien seems disinterested. he does seem drawn to sweeping and poetic visions, but even if he limits the scope to that, he's still got some thought-work to do. which is why we have reams of revisions about the origins of orcs.
matthias, thank you so much for re-introducing this topic. it's one of my faves.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 27 2014, 2:06pm
Post #33 of 46
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The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!
**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 29 2014, 12:17pm
Post #34 of 46
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goblin -- my very brief external history
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In Letter #131 (1951), which can be considered a reliable statement of purpose, he references the "...Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed." This unites orcs and goblins under the same banner, as it were, of creation.
I believe orcs and goblins were the same essential beings by 1951, and they might have been so even from as early as 1916 or so, up to Tolkien's passing.
I have to use 'might' there due to some seeming distinction in the early texts, but on the other hand the word orc appears to be Elvish in phases long before Tolkien ever imagined a Third Age existing, or a language called Westron. And so even in the early lexicons we find Elvish orc [or similar] and English 'goblin'.
That said, if the creatures are the same 'essential beings' that does not necessarily mean there was never any imagined distinction between these two terms, and confusingly enough, I believe there was such a distinction, until [as I also believe] Tolkien finally abandoned any and all distinction in the 1960s.
I think the distinction was one of formidability, and even more confusingly, applied in two ways...
A] Orcs were more formidable than the 'goblins of today'.
and
B] Orcs were more formidable than goblins according to the characters of Frodo's day!
As I see things, while A has something to say about the Orcs of the imagined period, it has really nothing to say about any distinction to the characters in The Lord of the Rings. In other words the reader knows that a 'goblin' still refers to an orc, and is thus the same thing, as long as he or she keeps in mind that Tolkien is not really referring to the lesser 'goblins' of later stories, these are orcs rather -- just as he is not really referring to the modern depiction of 'Elves' either...
... B however is possibly more confusing, as then we have to imagine that the fictive translator is, now and again, employing English goblin to refer to a less formidable type of orc. This seems clear enough in draft texts that describe the attack on the fellowship in the Mines of Moria, for example, however in the ultimate, author published version of this encounter, this distinction between orc and goblin is dropped in any case*
I once thought that Tolkien dropped this distinction in the early 1950s, but now I think that he held on. JRRT actually added an 'orc reference' to the second edition of The Hobbit, and seems to be using both terms as if they are distinct, or might be distinct at least, in draft texts for the appendices of The Return of the King.
C] ultimate scenario in my opinion: Orc is a Westron word, sometimes translated with English 'goblin' [and usually translated with English 'goblin' in The Hobbit]. No distinction of any kind.
So if so, again, all this former distinction becomes 'external'. I think [which I also think can be demonstrated with some strong texts] Tolkien ultimately abandoned any distinction whatsoever between these two terms in the 1960s, and that the ultimate scenario is much simpler.
And moreover, the ultimate scenario that I argue Tolkien landed on is not only nicely simple, but it can also be applied to even those few remnants of passages [in The Hobbit], so that his later explanation 'transforms' these passages into mere examples of translation...
... that is, these passages become mere examples of the 'translator' choosing an English word over a Westron word, easily fitting in with the notion that there is no distinction whatsoever between an orc and a 'goblin', just as there is no distinction between Quendi and 'Elves', or to pick another Westron word and its English translation: kuduk and 'Hobbit'.
__________
*my confusion remains however, as, if in fact this distinction of formidability persisted into the early 1950s at least, why would Tolkien choose to describe Saruman's uruks with 'goblin-soldiers' at one point. Perhaps this seeming 'inconsistency' is part of why [again in my opinion] Tolkien ultimately abandoned the notion in the 1960s.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 29 2014, 12:29pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 29 2014, 1:12pm
Post #35 of 46
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Richard Armitage is an Orc in real life. You just can't tell cuz of his makeup. //
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 29 2014, 2:25pm
Post #36 of 46
(290 views)
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lol!!!! --- erm --- i mean --- eru sees all your wicked deeds, cg.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 29 2014, 2:25pm
Post #37 of 46
(295 views)
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aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 29 2014, 2:35pm
Post #38 of 46
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I may just have to take exception to your negative connotation of "corruption," as if that's a bad thing. So what if Orcs are "corrupted" from any species? Is corruption always a bad thing, or is that an anti-Darwinian position? Orcs aren't "corrupted," they're "evolved," just as evolution always creates new offshoots of species. To say that one offshoot is somehow inferior to another is simply specist, possibly classist, a trifle elitist, and borderline pugilist.
I would say more, but there are Orcs plundering and murdering in our office right now. You'd never see Elves do that, would you? Wait, what am I saying?!?!?
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elaen32
Gondor
Apr 29 2014, 5:34pm
Post #39 of 46
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I'm a little concerned at your obsession with Richard Armitage CG
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 You seem to mention him a lot- are you trying to tell us something?
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 29 2014, 5:42pm
Post #40 of 46
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I'm still in therapy over RA. I'll let you know when it's over. It's a giant issue for me. (get it? giant?) //
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 29 2014, 9:03pm
Post #41 of 46
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you getting over RA....that's a tall order, cg. he's sort of like a thorin in your side, no? it's sad, really, that your fixation on RA dwarfs all pleasures in your life. your life could be so much richard if you just embraced him.
cheers (and concerns) --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 29 2014, 9:29pm
Post #43 of 46
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i really am quite concerned....
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a life crisis of majestic proportions, indeed.
cg may be royally screwed. on a quest to regain the sanity that was taken from him. well, i will help him take it back, if i can.
cg, leather or not you find the answers you seek, don't thrush into any rash decisions. your struggle may seem to be dragon, but with a little patience will help you climb that mountain, and you won't feel so lonely anymore.
please believe me, cg, when i say we all hair about you.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Matthias132
The Shire
Apr 30 2014, 3:49am
Post #45 of 46
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I agree that maia have no physical form, but who is to say that the did not take on elvish forms, or forms similar to orcs. They very well may have taken on a form that was capable of producing beings similar to what we picture as orcs. Biology does not really matter in this instance. The orcs could multiply with other beings that were created by Eru.
I think orcs have to have been manipulated from something in some way. I don't know if Melkor made orcs from stone because I don't know if that counts as creating. Ungoliant was present in Arda before the Valar, so who is to say that some other beings were not there as well.
Again, I think the manipulation of elves makes the most sense. They are relatively of the same stature, and they would be easy to manipulate, especially at the beginnings of the Awakening. Morgoth twisted men to his own side, and who is to say that elves could not have been turned to orcs? Early elves could have mated with other creatures, or maia, and created orcs as well. That is where I think orcs overtime became ugly because of the influence of evil. I think in the earliest years they were still ugly because Morgoth's evil was likely palpable, but they were still I think a form that likely resembled elves or men more closely.
I cannot recall if the silmarillion or other stories describe what the orcs looked like in that earlier time period. If it does then it may completely bash my theory.
I think orcs and goblins are the same thing. Just different words.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 30 2014, 12:04pm
Post #46 of 46
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I agree that maia have no physical form, but who is to say that the did not take on elvish forms, or forms similar to orcs. They very well may have taken on a form that was capable of producing beings similar to what we picture as orcs. Biology does not really matter in this instance. The orcs could multiply with other beings that were created by Eru.
Orc-formed Maiar is actually a fairly consistent notion when it comes to Tolkien's later ideas. They appear in at least three different texts in the section titled Myths Transformed, in texts, incidentally, where Tolkien can't seem to make up his mind with respect to what the source for 'regular' Orcs was, as Maiar-orcs were not regular Orcs.
Tolkien even seems to have thought of giving Maiar-orcs a name, in Boldogs.
I think orcs have to have been manipulated from something in some way. I don't know if Melkor made orcs from stone because I don't know if that counts as creating.
Right, orcs from stone [or underground slime and heat, as I can't spell subterranean] is the old idea, before Tolkien decided that Evil could not create souls, or true living creatures. Orcs from stone is only noted as being an early idea, although it seems to have been an idea that JRRT held for quite a long time before publishing The Lord of the Rings.
Thus, when Tolkien was writing the 'kill game' of Legolas and Gimli at Helm's Deep, arguably he still imagined that Orcs were nothing more than creations of Morgoth, not beings who had been created by Iluvatar and were twisted by Morgoth.
Again, I think the manipulation of elves makes the most sense. They are relatively of the same stature, and they would be easy to manipulate, especially at the beginnings of the Awakening. Morgoth twisted men to his own side, and who is to say that elves could not have been turned to orcs?
This intrigues me a bit, as you note that Morgoth twisted Men to his own side. And I would say that Orcs are really closer to the stature of Men [Men in general] than to Elves -- if we go by Tolkien's later thoughts on stature and think about the First Age, thus before the Numenoreans. So it intrigues me why you should say Elves makes the most sense, given that Men were easily swayed by Morgoth.
I think orcs and goblins are the same thing. Just different words.
You are correct in my opinion. I would go a step further too: not only do we have different words for orcs here, we have a word and its translation into Modern English.
For example here we have two different words for Hobbits with their English translations: Westron kuduk English 'Hobbit' [at least an invented Modern English word, as Tolkien invented Modern 'Hobbit' and its theoried Old English 'Holbytla'], Westron banakil English 'Halfling'. But what we have in this case is two different words as in the original word and its translation: Westron Orc English 'goblin'.
And of course, in translation, you could employ English goblin for, say, the Sindarin word too: Sindarin orch English 'goblin'.
And here's where is gets possibly confusing but not really
You can employ Westron Orc as a translation too: Sindarin orch 'means' Orc...
But if you don't know what an Orc is [as some of Tolkien's readers in the 1950s might not, especially those who had not read The Hobbit], you probably should use English 'goblin'...
... at least somewhere 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 30 2014, 12:18pm)
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