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Sauron's first attack on Osgiliath - Destroying the bridge

Saruman101
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Apr 23 2014, 10:29pm

Post #1 of 20 (1026 views)
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Sauron's first attack on Osgiliath - Destroying the bridge Can't Post

Hi everyone,

So I'm writing a piece for an LOTR class I'm taking at school. The chapter-length story will be about Sauron's first attack on Osgiliath, in which Boromir, Faramir and the men of Gondor successfully defended the western shore while losing the eastern shore to enemy forces.

Boromir tells the council at Rivendell that the bridge connecting Western and Eastern Osgiliath was destroyed to halt the enemy from advancing. This bridge would have been made of stone, which leads into my question...

How would Boromir and Faramir be able to destroy a stone bridge? The men of Gondor don't use any magic, and fire obviously would do little damage to stone.

I'm very much stuck on this problem, and I'm looking for any help I can get.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 23 2014, 11:01pm

Post #2 of 20 (941 views)
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I went to Google. [In reply to] Can't Post

This video shows how to break stone using fire, while these two websites show how to shape rocks with hammer and chisel - which I'm sure could be used to just break stone willy-nilly if necessary. (I'm imagining a couple of dozen soldiers going ballistic with chisels while other soldiers stand guard against orcs - the bridge could well have been weakened previously by Faramir's men in case of a major orc incursion, and only need to have some support structures pulled away for the bridge to come down quickly.)

I hope you find this helpful.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 23 2014, 11:27pm

Post #3 of 20 (1373 views)
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Wedges, big hammers, and long levers. [In reply to] Can't Post

And possibly draft animals.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 3:59am

Post #4 of 20 (916 views)
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One good [In reply to] Can't Post

Grond might be of assistance.

>>>>THIS SPACE FOR HIRE<<<<
Contact Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.
Hole #14, Bywater Pool Road


squire
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 11:07am

Post #5 of 20 (915 views)
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Boromius At The Bridge [In reply to] Can't Post

As Boromir describes the event, his and Faramir's detachment defended the bridge approaches on the eastern bank while it was "cast down" behind them; then only four of his force escaped to the west, by swimming the Anduin. The rest were presumably killed or drowned.

The episode is clearly a gloss on the famous story of Horatius at the Bridge, an English poetic retelling of which was a staple of public school education in Tolkien's youth. Here are a couple of verses from Macaulay's poem (Horatius is speaking in the first stanza):

XXIX

"Haul down the bridge, Sir Consul,
With all the speed ye may;
I, with two more to help me,
Will hold the foe in play.
In yon strait path a thousand
May well be stopped by three.
Now who will stand on either hand,
And keep the bridge with me?"

XXX

Then out spake Spurius Lartius;
A Ramnian proud was he:
"Lo, I will stand at thy right hand,
And keep the bridge with thee."
And out spake strong Herminius;
Of Titian blood was he:
"I will abide on thy left side,
And keep the bridge with thee."

XXXI

"Horatius," quoth the Consul,
"As thou sayest, so let it be."
And straight against that great array
Forth went the dauntless Three.
For Romans in Rome's quarrel
Spared neither land nor gold,
Nor son nor wife, nor limb nor life,
In the brave days of old.

XXXII

Then none was for a party;
Then all were for the state;
Then the great man helped the poor,
And the poor man loved the great:
Then lands were fairly portioned;
Then spoils were fairly sold:
The Romans were like brothers
In the brave days of old.

XXXIII

Now Roman is to Roman
More hateful than a foe,
And the Tribunes beard the high,
And the Fathers grind the low.
As we wax hot in faction,
In battle we wax cold:
Wherefore men fight not as they fought
In the brave days of old.

XXXIV

Now while the Three were tightening
Their harness on their backs,
The Consul was the foremost man
To take in hand an axe:
And Fathers mixed with Commons
Seized hatchet, bar, and crow,
And smote upon the planks above,
And loosed the props below.


What I notice here is that the bridge is made of wood, not stone, and so is more easily destroyed by the Romans. In the context of Osgiliath, about which we know so little, we could imagine the "last bridge" being in fact a wooden structure, recently erected for purposes of defense, or else ancient and venered from the earliest days of the city. Likewise we could say it was stone ("cast down" certainly suggests stone), and the defense by the sons of the Steward was necessarily more protracted and involved to give the engineers the needed time.

I can't help closing with this classic commentary on Boromir's and Faramir's dramatic battle to hold the Bridge:

At this the ballhog strode forward onto the bridge, and stepping back, the wizard drew himself up to his full height and said, "Avaunt, thin-clad one!"
Arrowroot waved Krona. "He cannot hold the bridge," he shouted and rushed forward.
"E pluribus unum," cried Bromosel and leaped after him.
"Esso extra," said Legolam, jumping behind him.
"Kaiser Frazer," shouted Gimlet, running up to join them.
The ballhog sprang forward, and raising the dread globe over his head, uttered a triumphant cry.
"Dulce et decorum," said Bromosel, hacking at the bridge.
"Above and beyond," said Arrowroot, chopping a support.
"A far, far better thing," said Legolam, slicing through the walkway.
"Nearer my God to thee," hummed Gimlet, cutting the last stay with a quick ax stroke.
With a loud snap, the bridge collapsed, spilling Goodgulf and the ballhog into the abyss. Arrowroot turned away and, stifling a sob, ran along the passage with the rest of the company close behind.



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dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 24 2014, 4:06pm

Post #6 of 20 (895 views)
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It's the [In reply to] Can't Post

"Dulce et decorum" that really gets to me. And I'm certain Tolkien would have understood.

I wonder what Denethor thought when he heard about both of his sons taking this possibly suicidal stand, instead of one of them doing the deed while the other led the bridge-breaking team.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Saruman101
Registered User


Apr 24 2014, 6:04pm

Post #7 of 20 (886 views)
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More bridge talk [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks everyone for the input, you're really helping me out and giving me lots of ideas.

While we take everything in Peter Jackson's trilogy with a grain of salt, I wanted to get a good look at his build of Osgiliath. Attached is a photo of the Osgiliath bridge connecting the two shores. As one could see, parts of the bridge have been rebuilt with what appears to be a wood-like construct.

So, does that mean the men of Gondor reconnected the bridge themselves? Or did the enemy lay down these wooden sections to move their forces and siege weapons over the shore?

Basically what I'm getting at -- Osgiliath was already in ruin when Boromir and Faramir first encountered Sauron's army at Osgiliath. Would that mean that the bridge itself was already in ruin? And that the men of Gondor possibly connected the bridge with similar wooden sections themselves?

Just want to find what makes the most sense in regards to destroying the Osgiliath bridge. Once I get over this hump, I can write this story!
Attachments: Osgiliath.jpg (38.3 KB)


NottaSackville
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 9:21pm

Post #8 of 20 (881 views)
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Just a couple of comments [In reply to] Can't Post

1) In the movies, you can clearly see that the white stone Gondor builds with is mostly just caked powdered sugar - note how it basically explodes when things like siege engine ramps open on to it. A bridge made out of this might just need a few buckets of water poured to dissolve a few keystones to bring the whole thing down.

2) In a more serious attempt, Gondor has been fighting the long fight against Sauron for many an age. It's possible the bridges were built (or retro-fitting long ago) to be easy to bring down (from the side closes to Minas Tirith) should it be necessary. Likely the effort to bring the bridge down was not large at all.

Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 10:16pm

Post #9 of 20 (872 views)
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Judging by the unevenness of the woodwork, [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

So, does that mean the men of Gondor reconnected the bridge themselves? Or did the enemy lay down these wooden sections to move their forces and siege weapons over the shore?
I'd say that's Orc workmanship. Tolkien's good guys never seem to build anything without taking pride in it; I can't imagine any of them putting up such an ugly slapdash kind of structure.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.

(This post was edited by Meneldor on Apr 24 2014, 10:17pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 26 2014, 10:19am

Post #10 of 20 (867 views)
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I deduce that Sauron's forces built the bridge [In reply to] Can't Post

The secret purpose of the attack as to get the Nazgul across the river: at least that is what Tolkien wrote in his unfinished tale Hunt for the Ring (which was published posthumously in Unfinished Tales). The idea is that the Nazgul can't (or hate to) cross water. Therefore a bridge is needed to get them across the Anduin. The attack, which the Gondorians believe they have repulsed, was actually called off once the Nazgul had been deployed to the west bank, Tolkien writes.

The Nazgul at this point are supposed to be shapeless: they are encountered by the Gondorian defenders as a feeling of abject terror, rather than seen a horsemen in black robes.

So my thinking is: if there were already a usable bridge left in the ruins, why not simply get the Nazgul to cross it? It seems unlikely that the Gondorians could have stopped them.

It seems more likely to me that the orcs had to build a bridge. It was realised that there was no hope of the Gondorians not noticing, and therefore that it would be necessary to establish a bridgehead as well as a bridge. Mounting a sufficiently large attack would also trick the Gondorians into thinking that the bridge served the attack, rather than inviting Sauron's enemies to guess at some other purpose.

My second line of reasoning is that Gondor, outnumbered and on the defensive, should be expected to be less keen on leaving bridges across the river than Mordor. I infer that Gondorian operations on the East bank are largely or exclusively stealth affairs (like Faramir and his Rangers). I'm thinking that Faramir et al. would probably infiltrate over the river in some quiet uncontested spot, rather than come marching over a disputed bridge and thereby offering open battle. Certainly they must have a non-bridge way to cross, since Faramir makes it back to Minas Tirith after meeting Frodo, and after the bridge is down. Mordor, with large armies and heavy equipment to move up in attack, ought to be keener on keeping a bridge. So, were I wargaming as the Gondorian commander, I wouldn't want to leave any substantial bridges standing.

However...

If, Saruman101 you prefer your story to have the bridge being an existing one, originally part of the city, I think you can perfectly well do so. Of course, on one level it's your story & you can do what you like anyway. But if you want to have a counterargument against my line of reasoning, you can dismiss the whole get-the-Nazgul-across-the-river idea:

The Hunt for the Ring story was published in unfinished form, & Christopher Tolkien (editor) comments that JRRT saw some problems with the 'Nazgul can't cross water' idea. How would they manage the other water obstacles between them and the Shire? It's easy to think of other objections:
How does their Black Rider equipment (horses, robes etc. ) make it across the river? Is it supposed to have been carried over the bridge and then through the Gondorian lines (sounds difficult)? Or do the Nazgul rendezvous with it on the west bank? But, if you can get horses and robes over the river in some uncontested spot, why can't the Nazgul use that route too? Of course that gets bogged down into speculation about any other options for crossing the Anduin. Are we to suppose, for example that Nazgul can cross water on a bridge but can't use a boat?

So perfectly reasonable to argue that Tolkien would probably have thought of something else, had he got Hunt for the Ring to completion, and that an image of the Gondorians defending a fine old stone bridge can stand.

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


squire
Half-elven


Apr 26 2014, 1:20pm

Post #11 of 20 (852 views)
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Bridge Over Shallow Water, or, Expecting in Nine Months? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's rare to see both positions in a discussion argued so well by one poster. Your header shows which side you land on at the end, though, and I wanted to offer a response to it that doesn't get into the whole 'Nazgul/water' nonsense.

As I read the original story in LotR which Boromir reports to the Council, the episode is the first open instance of Mordor's "long prepared" war against Gondor. Gondor up to that point had held East Osgiliath as its last outpost on the Ithilien side of the Great River. Thus the survival of the last bridge, which Gondor had built. Sauron attacked, not so much to get the Nazgul across the River unwetted (a later addition by the author) as to secure an uncontested base to prepare for the final assault on Minas Tirith which comes the following spring. The entire chapter of 'The Siege of Minas Tirith' is filled with references to the massive preparations that had been required for a full-force river crossing that enabled Sauron's forces to reduce the City to flames and near-surrender in less than a week. Strategically, Sauron probably saw the Gondorians' destruction of their last bridge as being to his advantage, not theirs!

I have to admit I've always been puzzled by Tolkien's feeling that he needed another explanation for why that first battle resulted in a 'draw', giving Gondor another nine months to prepare. As I see it, it was Sauron who needed the nine months more than Denethor, and so the entire bit about needing the bridge for the Nazgul is just unnecessary -- not to mention illogical as you point out in the second half of your post.

And don't forget the famous "fords"! *grumble, grumble, piss and moan*



squire online:
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 26 2014, 9:46pm

Post #12 of 20 (846 views)
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Tricky things, bridges [In reply to] Can't Post

I see ( I think)- if you assume (or know from the text) that Gondor had a reasonably large force on the East bank, then they might be keen on keeping the bridge for now, to be able to pull that force back quickly (before destroying the bridge if it looked like it had now become a liability). Which is nice, because again it means Saruman101 is free to have the right kind of bridge for the new story. Makes sense too.


I've been recalling that as a teen my best friend & I were keen tabletop war gamers & we had an intense discussion about how to defend a bridge (from both sides? From the near side only? Demolish it, or not?). We tried a series of games to try & figure it out. I don't recall now whether we came to any conclusion - I just remember the fun we had.

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 26 2014, 9:59pm

Post #13 of 20 (846 views)
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Oh, those wimpy, hydrophobic Black Riders! [In reply to] Can't Post

How they disappoint someone thinking about the story rationally. They can't cross water - how silly! They know the Ring is at the Prancing Pony but don't storm the place! They don't follow up the Weathertop attack! They don't... Etc. etc.

But, don't they make a great story till one thinks of all this! In some folkloric or mythic way, they are such a great, creepy pursuit to send after Frodo. Gangs of Ruffians would be more practical, but would make nowhere near so good a tale. And in that folkloric/mythic/archetypical freak-out-my-subconscious tradition, it seems they ought to have some weird weakness (can't cross water; or hate garlic; or can't enter a house with walnuts in the plaster; or faint at the sight of beer).

Thinking if which, just in case there are any Black Riders around, I think
I'll go check the fridge for beers: can't be too careful…

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Saruman101
Registered User


Apr 27 2014, 1:38am

Post #14 of 20 (837 views)
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Final decision! [In reply to] Can't Post

This has all been amazing feedback. I love how passionate and knowledgeable everyone is here at TOR. I don't plan on making this story very long, again, I'm looking at it as a "chapter-length" tale. So to make a long story short, because come on, there's no story longer than the history of Middle Earth...

THE bridge in Osgiliath will have already been in decay by the time of Sauron's attack. In three sections where there would be gaps in the bridge, there will be wood constructs made by the men of Gondor to withstand 'most weapons of war.'

Following what Boromir said to the council at Rivendell, in an effort to halt the Mordor force crossing over to Western Osgiliath, Gondorian soldiers will set flame to each wooden section of the bridge while the sons of the steward and company attempt to fall back. The sections will literally crumble under the feet of some men (both enemy and ally alike), a sacrifice these soldiers are willing to take.

It's said that only Boromir, Faramir and two other rangers escaped the defense of the bridge, so I would work that piece of information into this scene as well. Think a very "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" moment, if anyone gets the reference...

In terms of the black rider the Gondorian soldiers see, and it was indeed a black rider (“like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled"), I'll leave that encounter as a mystery for now.

Curious to hear what everyone thinks about this decision. I think it's the best way to go... for Gondor!

EDIT: I realize withstanding war weapons and setting to flame the same wood sections doesn't exactly equate, but I feel as if Gondor would have the proper techniques in accomplishing both. As in, both building sections for their own use and destroying those same sections.

And I say war weapons because I imagine Gondor would want to be able to send "artillery" back and forth between East and West Osgiliath.


(This post was edited by Saruman101 on Apr 27 2014, 1:44am)


Saruman101
Registered User


Apr 27 2014, 6:55am

Post #15 of 20 (816 views)
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OR [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, there's this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O3gFweo6hA

... I don't even know.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 27 2014, 7:35am

Post #16 of 20 (814 views)
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Yay! I think you now have to 'Write it ­honestly, and tell it as best you can. ' [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds great. I like the ideas if wooden sections repairing an old bridge: I imagine they could be quite sturdy, but rigged for demolition (e.g. if you like, they are on pontoons which you sink to capsize the bridge sections. That gives you, should you wish it, a battle in the bridge itself, and also a struggle around the pontoons to control or disable the demolition system. ) But I'm sure there are other options!. I think we're saying that we don't know, so now you're down to a level of detail where you as author have to decide. I recommend Niel Gaman's advice:


Quote
"The main rule of writing is that if you do it with enough assurance and confidence, you’re allowed to do whatever you like. (That may be a rule for life as well as for writing. But it’s definitely true for writing.) So write your story as it needs to be written. Write it ­honestly, and tell it as best you can. I’m not sure that there are any other rules. Not ones that matter."

Neil Gaiman rules of writing (Article in The Guardian)
http://www.theguardian.com/...ing-fiction-part-one


Good luck with the story!

I'd forgotten that, from Boromir's account, the defenders did indeed see a black horseman. Thanks for pointing that out! So the secret crossing of the Nazgul (if one wants to accept that as part of the story) wasn't as secret as it might have been! A further difficulty for the 'it was a diversion to infiltrate the Nazgul' idea.

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Saruman101
Registered User


Apr 29 2014, 12:37am

Post #17 of 20 (799 views)
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THE NAME OF THE BRIDGE! [In reply to] Can't Post

How could I not have asked this! What is the name of the main bridge of Osgiliath? I can't find one name that's the same across different sites and various writings. If anyone knows ... TELL!


Saruman101
Registered User


Apr 29 2014, 7:58am

Post #18 of 20 (788 views)
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Anyone on the Osgiliath Bridge? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bump? Still searching to find that bridge's name!


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2014, 6:28pm

Post #19 of 20 (782 views)
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An idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Call it 'The Last Bridge'? Not trying to be snarky or sarcastic, but maybe this would work--implying the finality in it's destruction and the severing of the link between the two sides of the city? 'Old Bridge' might work too.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Gimloid
The Shire

May 1 2014, 2:07am

Post #20 of 20 (779 views)
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Pons ligno, non saxo, factus est [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Squire that the incident is based on Horatius at the bridge, and that the bridge, like its Roman inspiration, was probably made of wood. Stone bridges are really very difficult to demolish, because the whole structure is in compression, held together by its own weight. Short of undermining the foundations there's not a lot you can do to them without explosives - even they are not all that much use - or labour- and time-intensive methods which aren't much use in the middle of a battle.

As for the name, I'm not sure that a definitive name was ever given, was it? I'm not sure about "Last Bridge"; that could be a bit ambiguous. I'd just go for calling it the "Bridge of Osgiliath" :)

 
 

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