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phoenixmadder
Registered User
Apr 22 2014, 11:03pm
Post #1 of 16
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Nazgul Gender?
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Hello all, I have a question about Lord of the Rings that I have been researching and can't seem to find a definitive answer to and I was wondering if someone here could help me out.
Did Tolkien ever confirm that the Nazgul were all male and/or Kings?
I know in the movies there is a line stating they were formerly Kings (and they are shown as such in the intro) but were all nine ever confirmed in the books or by Tolkien himself as guys? They are often described as 'Men' but that could also be used in the context of the race of Men rather than a gender description.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 22 2014, 11:15pm
Post #2 of 16
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Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:
"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old."
This is indication enough that the Nazgul were all men.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Apr 22 2014, 11:36pm
Post #3 of 16
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This would also fit in Tolkien's worshipful attitude toward women. You notice nearly all bad deeds are done by men.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 11:59pm
Post #4 of 16
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You have a few questionable females too...
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Beruthiel,--"nefarious, solitary and loveless" "She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, ... setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them. No man in Gondor dared touch them; all were afraid of them, and cursed when they saw them pass."
Thuringwethil--, Arguably a vampire/Maiar but still female. It was her disguise that Luthien assumed to infiltrate Angband with Beren
Erendis-- Stubborn, not evil, maybe, but not perfect either,
Shelob and Ungoliant-- Okay! I admit it! They were spiders!!
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins-- Maybe stubborn, old, and crotchety would fit better, but tell that to the people she beat with her umbrella and whose spoons she stole!!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 23 2014, 12:54am
Post #5 of 16
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Lobelia Sackville-Baggins-- Maybe stubborn, old, and crotchety would fit better, but tell that to the people she beat with her umbrella and whose spoons she stole!! Lobelia SB well redeemed herself. She beat the jeez out of some ruffians, before The Scouring of The Shire. Then was praised and lauded when released from the Lockholes. And lastly she gave Bag End back to Frodo. Perhaps she could, in the end, be forgiven for some earlier klepto tendencies.
>>>>THIS SPACE FOR HIRE<<<<
Contact Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.
Hole #14, Bywater Pool Road
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 23 2014, 1:06am
Post #6 of 16
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I do love the dear Lobelia.(In the way one might care for a troublemsome relation), her malice and schemes were petty enough to be laughable. Very much appropriate to the simple, socio-manner-centric, style of life in the Shire.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 23 2014, 9:04am
Post #7 of 16
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Welcome to the Reading Room, phoenixmadder !
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I agree with Morthoron - it seems likely that they were all once men (i.e. male) as well as men (in the way Tolkien uses the word Tolkien to identify a species, or subspecies or whatever; men, males and females both, as opposed to dwarves, elves etc.).
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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phoenixmadder
Registered User
Apr 23 2014, 2:27pm
Post #8 of 16
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Thanks for your help everyone! I'm writing an article about the various changes in Tolkien Adaptations and I wanted to use MERP's changing of one of the Nazgul into a female as a point of interest. I was sure Tolkien had said specifically that they were all male but couldn't find anything concrete on the subject. With this information in hand I may be able to make a case that all Nazgul were male, thanks for your help once more :)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 23 2014, 2:59pm
Post #9 of 16
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Not all kings; probably all males.
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I would not call it 100% confirmed that the Nazgul were all male; however, it does seem probable. It is just possible that one of the Ringwraiths could have been a sorceress or a now-forgotten warrior-queen. There are historical precedents for the latter.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 23 2014, 3:56pm
Post #10 of 16
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If it was possible to post a link to your article in the Reading Room, I feel sure you'd get interesting feedback!
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Apr 24 2014, 10:21pm
Post #11 of 16
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Erendis was a normal woman with a husband with commitment problems.
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Erendis-- Stubborn, not evil, maybe, but not perfect either.
(This post was edited by DaughterofLaketown on Apr 24 2014, 10:22pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 25 2014, 12:32am
Post #12 of 16
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"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky."
Galadriel was female.
I guess a Queen can be a King if she wants to. I mean, look at Queen, er, that is, *Pharaoh* Hatshepsut of Egypt.
(BTW, what did Strider say to the female Ringwraith when he met her at The Prancing Pony?
"What's a Nazgûl like you doing in a place like this?")
******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2014, 1:11am
Post #13 of 16
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Just meant to show that she was far from the seemingly typical, worshipful ideal.
Not to be taken too seriously!     
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 27 2014, 1:06pm
Post #15 of 16
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mae govannen, pohenixmadder : )
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echoing points made above...
+likely+ all-male, but there is ample room to think at least seven (?) of them could be female.
1. a sorcerer can be female
2. a warrior can be female (and plenty of the rohirrim were shield-maidens)
i love darkstone's astute point that 'the poem makes reference to "elf-kings," yet galadriel is clearly female, and had been wielding nenya for quite some time.
perhaps a few of the black riders were nazdernhelms?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 27 2014, 1:06pm
Post #16 of 16
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beautiful and artful wordplay, darkstone. : ) //
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aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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*MODS UP* Darkstone. For making me snicker over this all day. //
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