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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 22 2014, 3:11am
Post #26 of 47
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They were social outcasts after they fell in love, and they brought about revolutionary change first by Luthien becoming mortal, second by introducing a mixed Eldar/Maiar bloodline into the gene pool of the heroic caste, and third by shaking up all of Beleriand by their victory over Morgoth and inspiring the great, renewed alliance against him (the Nirnaeth). That alliance came to a bad end overall, and specifically led to the curse on Hurin's family, but revolutions often don't always turn out well. Now, I didn't think of them until you brought it up - but they bring their gift in the form of the key to the enrichment of the blood of Men: the union of Elf and Man. Great corollary! The end may not ultimately be completely bad, if Turin gets to avenge us all and Morgoth pays the piper a the Last Battle. And I don't feel bad about that at all, he's got it coming.
The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings! **CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 22 2014, 3:14am
Post #27 of 47
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Not all The Silmarillion equates to Greek mythos....
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Although one could say with reason that the "Narn i Chîn Húrin" (The Tale of the Children of Húrin) is, in simplest terms,the Finnish epic Kalevala told in the form of a Greek tragedy. The Tale of Beren and Lúthien , however, relies more on the Welsh "Kilhwch and Olwen" from the Mabinogion and "The Devil With the Three Golden Hairs" collected in the original German by the Brothers Grimm. "Kilhwch and Olwen" contains the great hunt for Twrch Trwyth, a grim, enchanted boar from which Kilhwch must procure certain items (the hunt is joined by King Arthur and other knightly notables, just as Beren had a great Elvish retinue), and Kilhwch must also have the aid of a specific great hound to assure the hunt's success. Tolkien used the Wolf Carcharoth rather than a boar perhaps in part to add the sequence where Beren's hand is bitten off, this alluding to the Norse myth of the god Tyr having his hand bitten off in like manner by the wolf Fenris. P.S. Khim, excellent essay and spot on in many regards. I long ago (decades!) caught the resemblance between Prometheus bound and Maedhros chained atop Thangorodrim.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Apr 22 2014, 3:17am)
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Terazed
Bree
Apr 22 2014, 3:55am
Post #28 of 47
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Remember a Promethian romantic hero's chief characteristic is defiance of all authority. He or she is convinced that society or even God is wrong and is unwilling to concede even an inch to compromise with forces he/she feel are wrong. This is the source of their immense power and allows them to do things that no other mortal could achieve but it is also usually seen as a tragic flaw that is the seed of their own destruction. Some examples of romantic heros include Manfred, Captain Nemo, Captain Ahab, Dr. Victor Frankenstein. As you can see they can be some pretty dark characters. In Turin's case Morgoth has placed a curse on his entire family and the Valar have pretty much left all of Belariand to it's fate. On the positive side he defies this fate and curse with every fiber of his being and he certainly inspires everyone he meets into that same defiance be they man or elf. Everywhere he goes he is catapulted into leadership by the spark of his will. On the negative side he pretty much leads everyone around him to their destruction in his rashness. I never really pictured Beren and Luthien to have the force of will or defiance.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 22 2014, 11:35am
Post #29 of 47
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Excellent point on the defiance aspect
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Beren and Lu do bring a gift from the gods as it were, but it is obtained through art versus defiance, with Luthien's plea.
The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings! **CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 3:25pm
Post #30 of 47
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Well, Yavanna had the Ents and then there is Bombadil to care for the (Middle?)-earth. Yavanna also struck me as more fragile and retiring, like Nature she personified. Nature can, and does, crumble and grind to dust-- just think of all those post-apocalyptic jungles-- but it does require more time. Even the Ents were not too eager to do more rending and stone-breaking than they usually did. I think that Yavanna was that sort of person--strong mainly in the roots and regeneration, waiting and patient to re-emerge once danger had passed. You can level a forest, but give it time and care, and it will regrow. Yavanna was much like her creations, beautiful, strong, but also fragile and susceptible to harm, needing protection from the Nihilism of Morgoth and unchecked industrialisation of Saruman.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 3:35pm
Post #31 of 47
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Interesting points, Terazed, about the Romantic hero. Interestingly enough...(Insert shameless plug) my TAS piece touches upon the heroes, or heroic personages, that fail or die without accomplishing their goals. It is great to now have a name and bit of background on the motivation of those characters. I hope you'll stick around to add some thoughts on it! On the side, would the RL analogue of Wallace and Bruce, in the history of Scotland be a fair example of the romantic hero? Wallace's martyrdom seems to set the stage for Bruce's triumph.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Apr 22 2014, 3:43pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 22 2014, 3:54pm
Post #32 of 47
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Feanor, a typical romantic hero, with a different authorial handling?
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This is in reply to 3 Terazed posts, making it a little difficult to figure out where in the thread it is best to put it. Well, I hope this position will do. The bits I'm replying to are:
The romantic hero is different from the modern heroes we tend to think about. The romantic hero is either raised outside of or cast out from society. He or she always follows their own moral compass in defiance of a conventional society which is either amoral or unjust. Society views the romantic hero as a threat and rejects him or her. The romantic hero follows his/her own moral compass in defiance of society and eventually is destroyed by the flaws in their personality. ...and... Promethean type characters were used in the 19th century as a harbinger of change. ...and... a Promethian romantic hero's chief characteristic is defiance of all authority. He or she is convinced that society or even God is wrong and is unwilling to concede even an inch to compromise with forces he/she feel are wrong. This is the source of their immense power and allows them to do things that no other mortal could achieve but it is also usually seen as a tragic flaw that is the seed of their own destruction. ...and especially: My question is how does someone with right wing reactionary tendencies such as a Tolkien take to the Prometheus legend? Well, that makes Feanor a Romantic Hero, as far as I am concerned! To try and answer that question. First - I'm going to disqualify myself from discussing Tolkien's position on the Left<--> Right political axis. Maybe someone with more biographical knowledge knows? But I think that concern arises because of the idea that Promethean figures are often revolutionaries, and the political Right is often associated with conservatism - wanting to preserve the traditional sources of power, rather than to overthrow them. However, it seems to me that Terazed's description of a romantic hero could equally well be used as a profile of any zealot right or left, religious or marxist: what they have in common is an huge (and potentially or actually pathological) belief that they are right. Of course, I might not be right about this... What I really wanted to comment about, though was how Tolkien (as brought to us by C Tolkien and Guy Kay in the Sil) handle the character of Feanor during the key passages of Flight of The Noldor. There is a lot of direct description of the events. The storyteller gives us access to Feanor's state of mind and thoughts at several points, and the treatment is sympathetic:
His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth, and yet well night all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth himself; but he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish for the rape of the Silmarils'. 'Why, O people of the Noldor', he cried, 'why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from the Enemy?' What I don't see is much authorial or editorial aside: material telling us what we ought to think about things. I do not feel, reading the chapter, that I am invited to see Feanor as Good in rebelling against the Valar, nor do I feel that I'm being asked to see him as Bad, wrong, evil, or foolish. Feanor's oratorical assault of the Valar accuses them of conspiracy with Melkor (wrong-headed); excessive interference in the lives of the Eldar (arguable) and incompetence (demonstrable). I don't think we're asked to pick between clear wrong and right here. If anything the story unfolds with a sense of inevitability and helplessness: people are reacting with a convincing naturalness to the crisis. Feanor loses his head but not his self-belief or his pride or his oratory: he tragedy is propelled along by him using his extreme talent for his muddled objective. As a wider consideration, whose plan and agenda is playing out here - Feanor's? Melkor's? Eru's? (tick all that apply). I got to the end of the book undecided as to whether it was better overall for Middle-earth that the Noldor had returned to take part in it. I only know the Prometheus myth through modern retellings, but have never thought that it would have been better if Prometheus hadn't done what he did. So, my partial answer to Terazed's question is that Tolkien is observing a Promethean hero at work very competently, but he is a 'hero' in the older sense of 'protagonist' , rather than in the sense of being a role-model.
~~~~~~ "… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.” Arthur Martine "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 4:04pm
Post #33 of 47
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I think there is a bit of a difference in the use of the literary tool of defiance of the gods. There are two cases that come to mind: First, I think of the Greek/ME/higher life-form kind of god that is defied. I think of the Greek deities and the Valar as sort of more intelligent and powerful beings, not quite 'gods' in the sense Almighty, All-knowing or necessarily good role models. I might call them flawed gods. In this kind of case, I see defiance of these creatures used in a manner that implies that the gods have been abusive of their power, they have lost touch with the lesser mortals, or they just don't understand. I have also seen the defiance used as a sort of revenge for unjust actions, revolution of the political system (we mere mortals have outgrown the need for your help or guidance, and the gods get jealous), or to wake up a lazy set of deities to thier responsibility. In this kind of situation, I think the heroic crusader has a moral focus that is deemed to be higher than the gods', do we are supposed to root for him. The gods aren't necessarily 'bad' but they are incapable in one way or another. Secondly, I've also seem defiance of a deity take a tragic sort of turn. In this case, the hero is portrayed as hopelessly outmatched in a struggle against a harsh or indifferent god. It could also be seen as fate, rather than a named deity. Its a sort of man-against-the-odds story. I see the focus on these cases being the injustice wreaked upon the hero and the hopelessness he has of winning. This sort of take can be similar to the first, but it can radically diverge, creating a sort of story where the hero gains vengeance upon the deity and sticks it to the BIG man, as it were, and I see it as a way to vent anger on cruel fate/god. It can also take a tragic turn, one where they are doomed to fail, but like a romantic hero, others take up their cause and that masses avenge the injustice. The first case is pretty antagonistic, so I decided to list it separately. Perhaps Terazed can make some sense of the themes amd give us names for the random rambling a I've done here.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 4:14pm
Post #34 of 47
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But for those who do hold to orthodoxy, there is also an added dimension for tragedy. Doing all the right things and fighting for the forces of Good, but in not understanding the motivation behind it, ultimately failing the Divine or the Good and rules they have set. Playing on a team and winning, but as an unchartered member, you don't get a trophy. Sad, maybe wrong, but many may believe there are mandatory prerequisites to obtaining divine favour.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 22 2014, 4:21pm
Post #35 of 47
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Ah - I see you found your hat. Now you can tip it.
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The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings! **CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 4:21pm
Post #36 of 47
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Perhaps knowing that we cared about the Elven kingdoms, in the adaptation, Tolkien took advantage of our sympathy to increase the scale epic? How much fall out is there in the Kullevero? If it is more self-destructive, perhaps the reason was that we only really know a few people, and the harm to them would be more felt? Reading about a tragedy become a lot more real of you are emotionally invested. Also, (though this should probably wait for the COH read-through) I think I see twos eps of tragedy: the wide, Beleriand spanning destruction in the fall of kingdoms and powerful people, but also the personal destruction of Turin's soul. Does the Kullevero end with suicide? Things to think about....
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 4:27pm
Post #37 of 47
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Risings and falls of the theme...
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I think of the Music of the Ainur at times like this. In the contest, at various times the Theme dropped low, almost quenched, but then it rose to drown the schemes of Melkor. So the contest continued, but at the end, the last terrific chord that covered the whole scale "high and piercing as mountains and deep as the sea' (horrible paraphrasing, mine) and it dominated the whole possibility of musical performance. It got every note covered, and there was an irrevocable dominance in it. It rose and left Melkor behind, and we are just lining through the dips and rises until the final chord carries us away to the unassailable heights of good!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 4:31pm
Post #38 of 47
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So Promethean heroes perhaps carry things too far?
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Perhaps they are those overly ambitious to match the unnatural suppression and injustice, and the ones who self-destruct are those unable to dial it back to match the normal levels, and they go too far to one extreme?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 22 2014, 4:46pm
Post #39 of 47
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Touching on Kullervo (for now!)
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Perhaps knowing that we cared about the Elven kingdoms, in the adaptation, Tolkien took advantage of our sympathy to increase the scale epic? How much fall out is there in the Kullevero? If it is more self-destructive, perhaps the reason was that we only really know a few people, and the harm to them would be more felt? Reading about a tragedy become a lot more real of you are emotionally invested. Yes, I think that's a great summary Rem, and one reason it works is because of something we have discussed about JRRT: the true love of his subject and his world. I think that comes through, in this tale, because of his real attachment to the Elves and to Arda. And the effect Turin has on those who would otherwise be immortal really resonates with us, as mortals, and to whom the idea still likely holds a fascination. Also, (though this should probably wait for the COH read-through) I think I see twos eps of tragedy: the wide, Beleriand spanning destruction in the fall of kingdoms and powerful people, but also the personal destruction of Turin's soul. Does the Kullevero end with suicide? Indeed we will cover this more - Kullervo ends his life on the sentient blade which he has used to slay his enemy and his family in his quest for vengeance. After Kullervo slays Untamo (who destroyed Kullervo's early life) he returns to his home to find his family and tribe all dead - including a maiden that he casually had a liaison with, and whom he now realizes is his sister; she is dead by her own hand. No Second Prophesy for poor Kullervo. The Finnish god/wise man/bard Vainamoinen completes the tale by advising that children should be loved and not sold or cast out, for without love and wisdom they may turn dark and commit deeds like Kullervo.
The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings! **CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 4:59pm
Post #40 of 47
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I will have to add it to my reading list...
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I'll try to push it to the top, so that I am better informed. It's probably online, so I can download it to my ebook reader and read it on my lunch break. (Why do we need a whole hour to eat? It's always puzzled me... Oh well, I just use the time to read or study with a good strong cuppa. I call it my 'culture break!)
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Terazed
Bree
Apr 22 2014, 5:15pm
Post #41 of 47
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I would say yes William Wallace as depicted in the legends that I am aware of would be a romantic hero. I don't know enough his actual history to say for certain. Real world romantic heroes can be very dangerous types as they are revolutionaries by definition. That is one reason why I said that how a romantic hero is portrayed in fiction can betray how an author fells. Someone who wants a revolutionary change in society would depict a romantic hero in a favorable light. Someone who is afraid of radical change would depict a romantic hero in their most dangerous and negative light. Tolkien to me seems a bit more ambivalent in his depictions then some on one or the either side of the argument hence my questions.
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Khim
Bree
Apr 22 2014, 6:22pm
Post #42 of 47
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Tolkien Studies: "The Story of Kullervo" and Essays on Kalevala
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FYI I have only read two volumes from the Tolkien Studies series, sadly not #7, but based on them, and the reputations of the contributors, I recommend seeking them out. I'm still a hardback kind of guy and wish I had them all. Alas, they are expensive and many of them are currently out-of-print. In volume 7 Verlyn Flieger discusses Kullervo using Tolkien's own words, and his early story based on Kullervo, that is considered the seed from which The Silmarillion grew. Links provided: "The Story of Kullervo" and Essays on Kalevala J.R.R. Tolkien, Verlyn Flieger http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/tks/summary/v007/7.tolkien.html Tolkien Studies 7 http://wvupressonline.com/tolkien_studies_volume_7_1547-3155
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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Terazed
Bree
Apr 22 2014, 9:28pm
Post #43 of 47
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Yes but their primary trait is they are alone and they crave that solitude
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Perhaps they are those overly ambitious to match the unnatural suppression and injustice, and the ones who self-destruct are those unable to dial it back to match the normal levels, and they go too far to one extreme? Yes they go to far and self destruct but the word ambition has to be used with caution. The romantic hero and the example of Prometheus does not have ambition that we might thinks of such as to become rich or to rule over others. Their goal is to isolate themselves from society and become entirely human and not constrained by the limitations of society. In doing so they delve into aspects of being human that others are too afraid to explore or make scientific discoveries that no one else would even consider. Think about the tortured music of emotion of a Beethoven or the scientific discoveries that changed everything of a reclusive scientist such as a Newton. Here are some quotes from Bryon's Manfred, a prototypical romantic hero:
I could not tame my nature down; for he Must serve who fain would sway—and soothe, and sue, And watch all time, and pry into all place, And be a living lie, who would become A mighty thing amongst the mean, and such The mass are; I disdain’d to mingle with A herd, though to be leader—and of wolves. The lion is alone, and so am I
Well, though it torture me, ’tis but the same; My pang shall find a voice. From my youth upwards My spirit walk’d not with the souls of men, Nor look’d upon the earth with human eyes; The thirst of their ambition was not mine, The aim of their existence was not mine; My joys, my griefs, my passions, and my powers Made me a stranger; though I wore the form, I had no sympathy with breathing flesh, Nor midst the creatures of clay that girded me Was there but one who—but of her anon. I said, with men, and with the thoughts of men, I held but slight communion; but instead, My joy was in the Wilderness, to breathe The difficult air of the iced mountain’s top, Where the birds dare not build, nor insect’s wing Flit o’er the herbless granite; or to plunge Into the torrent, and to roll along On the swift whirl of the new breaking wave Of river-stream, or ocean, in their flow. In these my early strength exulted; or To follow through the night the moving moon, The stars and their development; or catch The dazzling lightnings till my eyes grew dim; Or to look, list’ning, on the scatter’d leaves, While Autumn winds were at their evening song. These were my pastimes, and to be alone; For if the beings, of whom I was one,— Hating to be so,—cross’d me in my path, I felt myself degraded back to them, And was all clay again. Notice the line about clay which is a reference back to the Prometheus legend. Constrained by society he feels he is not entirely human as if he were still clay before Prometheus gave them life. Here is another less harsh quote from the poem 'Alone' from Edger Allen Poe
From childhood’s hour I have not been As others were—I have not seen As others saw—I could not bring My passions from a common spring— From the same source I have not taken My sorrow—I could not awaken My heart to joy at the same tone— And all I lov’d—I lov’d alone— Then—in my childhood—in the dawn Of a most stormy life—was drawn From ev’ry depth of good and ill The mystery which binds me still— From the torrent, or the fountain— From the red cliff of the mountain— From the sun that ’round me roll’d In its autumn tint of gold— From the lightning in the sky As it pass’d me flying by— From the thunder, and the storm— And the cloud that took the form (When the rest of Heaven was blue) Of a demon in my view—
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 10:40pm
Post #44 of 47
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I'll try to eke out enough time to look at these great resources!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 22 2014, 10:44pm
Post #45 of 47
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I thank you for sharing these insights! I do suppose that my understanding of the word 'ambition' might differ slightly from others. I suppose I really meant 'passion', the personal drive to reach their own goals.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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elaen32
Gondor
Apr 26 2014, 9:30pm
Post #46 of 47
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Thank you for such a fascinating piece
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I was only dimly aware of the legend of Prometheus before reading this, but I found your comparisons between Feanor and Prometheus really interesting. The water connection, as others have stated, seems to be fundamental to a lot of stories from different and diverse cultures, even down to " flood" legends in punishment for the wrongdoing if people. I guess there are, as you say, certain fundamental truths, which transcend religious dogma, and many of these are reflected in Tolkien's writing, as well as in other tales from different ages and places. This thread has been a joy and an education to read- so thank you Khim and everyone else who has posted
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!
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Khim
Bree
Apr 26 2014, 11:27pm
Post #47 of 47
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I was a reluctant contributor and participant, but it has been a pleasure. Thank you for your king words.
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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