Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Bard, Smaug's death and intra-species conflicts in Middle-earth

The Grey Elf

Apr 20 2014, 2:44pm

Post #1 of 10 (225 views)
Bard, Smaug's death and intra-species conflicts in Middle-earth Can't Post

As someone with spotty familiarity with The Unfinished Tales and none of Tolkien's other works outside of LOTR and The Hobbit, I am unaware of any instances of warring in Middle-earth that doesn't take place between different species/cultures. Are there?

I came to this question in a roundabout way. As much has been made of the notion that a single arrow could kill Smaug, I've been pondering how movie Bard may accomplish this, beyond accurate aim. Since we know Laketown will be burning, what if he lit the black arrow with dragon fire and sunk it into Smaug's chest that way? (True, the arrow appears to be entirely metal but assuming dragon flames have properties greater than normal fire, I would argue it might be possible.) This, in turn, made me wonder if dragons were vulnerable to the fire of their own kind and if they ever battled amongst themselves which, let's face it, does seem like a typically anti-social and dragony thing to do ;-) Finally, this thought led me to realizing that the battles of Middle-earth, as far as I knew, seem to be very clearly drawn between species.

Have I missed anything from other Tolkien works re dragon lore and intra-species conflicts? And what do you think about my hypothetical re Bard and his kill shot?


Apr 20 2014, 3:07pm

Post #2 of 10 (147 views)
Oh, yes indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not aware of any particular conflict between different clans of Dwarves, and Hobbits are pretty peaceful guys; but, both Elves and Men have had a number of disputes within their own ranks. The chief incident involving Elves was the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, when the Teleri refused to give ships to the Noldor, and Feanor decided to take them by force. This was the first recorded slaying of Elf by Elf.

Men have a long history of warring among themselves. The Numenoreans started out as explorers, but became conquerors, partly because of the influence of Sauron. The Woses were long hunted as vermin by more sophisticated Men. The Dunlendings and the Rohirrim have long warred over territory. Gondor has fought numerous wars with Easterlings and Men of the South.

The Black Arrow of the book was a normal longbow arrow; although possibly forged by Dwarves in Erebor. The windlance arrow is essentially a ballista bolt, in other words, a crossbow bolt scaled to a siege weapon. It would be much thicker and heavier than a normal arrow and would deal much more damage if delivered with force. However, Bard should not be able to fire this arrow from his longbow, but should need the larger windlance to launch it.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Grey Havens

Apr 20 2014, 4:16pm

Post #3 of 10 (143 views)
There is a line in the Silmarillion about the Last Alliance [In reply to] Can't Post

against Sauron, at the end of the Second Age, that says some of each kind, even birds and beasts, fought on either side, except for the elves.

Hop to it, Radagast, we've got dark powers to sleigh.

The Grey Elf

Apr 20 2014, 4:51pm

Post #4 of 10 (128 views)
I also wonder if there was a historical precedent for Morgoth [In reply to] Can't Post

or other evil to deploy a dragon as part of their forces. Otherwise, how is it that Gandalf's concerns so readily leaped to Smaug being enlisted? For that matter, what keeps dragons from marauding all over Middle-earth for tasty delicacies? What confines them to seemingly isolated areas, such as the Withered Heath?

Grey Havens

Apr 20 2014, 5:38pm

Post #5 of 10 (122 views)
Morgoth created the dragons and used them as weapons [In reply to] Can't Post

His fortress was in the far north, so that seems to be the dragons' home, but why they don't go farther south more often is never explained as far as I know. Once they get a treasure hoard, they stay there and guard it, so maybe most of them already have treasure to guard and that's why they don't travel more often? Just guessing.

Hop to it, Radagast, we've got dark powers to sleigh.

The Grey Elf

Apr 20 2014, 5:45pm

Post #6 of 10 (114 views)
Thanks for the factoids, Elarie! [In reply to] Can't Post

Now things are starting to add up for me. Smile


Apr 20 2014, 7:27pm

Post #7 of 10 (104 views)
There were Men in Sauron's army at Minas Tirith and the Black Gate.// [In reply to] Can't Post



Apr 21 2014, 9:23am

Post #8 of 10 (70 views)
I can recall a pretty epic battle between a couple of Wizards ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
3rd draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - January 2, 2014


"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!

TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists (updated soon)

The Grey Elf

Apr 21 2014, 10:07am

Post #9 of 10 (69 views)
D'oh! // [In reply to] Can't Post


Tol Eressea

Apr 21 2014, 12:03pm

Post #10 of 10 (86 views)
Those Nasty Noldor and their Kinslaying [In reply to] Can't Post

Just expanding on Otaku's kinslaying point, there are three recorded cases of elf-on-elf violence:



Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville


Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.