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GiantMushroomBear
Bree
Apr 6 2014, 2:39pm
Post #1 of 16
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Something I've noticed
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Upon re-watching Desolation of Smaug, I realized what made certain scenes really good, and others not so much. Peter Jackson and J.R.R. Tolkien are both good at their craft, which is why some of the best moments in The Hobbit trilogy contain a balance between the events written by Tolkien and the vision of Peter Jackson.
Let's look at some of the more favored parts of these films, starting with Riddles in the Dark. The scene clearly stays true to the text, with an accurate usage of dialogue and setting described in the book. However, what makes this scene great is Peter Jackson's added sense of depth and heart--namely, when Bilbo spares Gollum's life. It is the combination of Tolkien and Jackson here that works in truly bringing the scene to life--something PJ has always been good at.
Another example is the Mirkwood sequence. Not only does the scene reflect the book quite well, accurately depicting the events and setting, but it adds something new and fresh, as well. PJ could have easily let this scene serve as yet another blatantly obvious instance of Bilbo's bravery, but instead, he uses this scene to a much more dramatic effect. Here, we see the effects the ring has on Bilbo, darkly foreshadowing future events and adding to the growing theme in the movie of greed and corruption. Again, here we have equilibrium with Tolkien's description and Jackson's vision.
The exciting "barrel chase" scene additionally benefited from the minds of both PJ and Tolkien. As in the book, the scene features the dwarves and Bilbo floating down a river in barrels. With no disrespect to Tolkien, Jackson adds a lot more to this scene, increasing the stakes and enjoyable factor by having an entertaining battle ensue between the elves, dwarves, and orcs. Not only is it fun to watch, but the scene also displays characterization and distinction between each of the dwarves, each of them having their own differen traits and skills showcased. In addition, this is the first scene where we truly get a sense of danger for the dwarves when Kili is shot with an arrow.
And finally, the cat-and-mouse game between Smaug and Bilbo (not that this scene needs much explanation). Here, the scene is essentially as it is described in the book. However, PJ's pitch perfect direction of the scene--with BC's formidable presence, the dynamic between Bilbo and Smaug, etc, is what makes it the best scene in the trilogy.
By contrast, some of the less loved parts of the trilogy are events completely made up and written by Peter Jackson--The rabbit sled chase, the Stone giants, the entire climax of DOS, etc. Likewise, other mediocre scenes--the trollshaws, goblin tunnels, etc.--while true to the book, didn't have any particular depth added to them making them less remarkable as scenes. This difference in quality suggests that the best route to take with this trilogy is a balance between the minds of Tolkien and Jackson, and that no single one of their visions should prevail--rather, it should be a "team effort," so to speak.
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Apr 6 2014, 6:23pm
Post #3 of 16
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Very well written. One of the best things i read in here for a while.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Apr 6 2014, 9:35pm
Post #4 of 16
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That's a very interesting idea, GMB.
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Have you tried to apply it to LotR?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 7 2014, 5:01am
Post #5 of 16
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I think the essence of what you're saying is that the successful scenes are the ones where the character shines through. Pure action sequences lose that aspect. The barrel chase is a fine example of an action sequence that didn't ignore character. It was funny and thrilling and interesting, which the more cartoonish action sequences were not.
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Sildarion~Valenar
Bree
Apr 7 2014, 6:06am
Post #6 of 16
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All in all I agree, except on a few points ...
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I completely agree that where the scenes are completely made-up, they are the worst scenes from the film.
And yes, scenes with a good mix of Tolkien and PJ work wonderfully.
But I disagree that if PJ sticks to Tolkien purely then it would be a dull scene.
Trollshaws - the scene would be wonderful if they had removed the snot-jokes and the ending - where the dwarves decide to get themselves killed to "save" Bilb. All PJ-additions. The only working addition was the dwarves not getting caught one-by-one.
Goblin Tunnels is actually markedly different from Tolkien. Gone is the suspenseful run through the tunnel. Where the company is not pushing through thousands of orcs - rather than running away from them and in complete darkness. Had PJ followed the book purely there it would have been a brilliant scene. Possibly one of the best chases from the films.
But PJ went with the "action" route rather than the "suspense" route - and reduced the quality.
So I would say that the best route for the trilogy would be either to follow Tolkien as much as possible or have a proportionate and sensible mix of the two.
"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
~ Tolkien lets Faramir speak his own view on war and glory
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Apr 7 2014, 6:49am
Post #7 of 16
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The Trollshaws scene was considerably different to the book, and likewise, with Goblin Town, one of my main dislikes has been the removal of suspense in preference for puerile humour and ramped-up action.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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dik-dik
Lorien
Apr 7 2014, 7:33am
Post #8 of 16
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Agreed 100 times. Now where's a clapping smiley?
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I'm fine with some tweaks, e.g. Gandalf¨s interference and Dwarf catching in the 3 trolls scene, but I didn't care for the other new aspects of the scene. It was truly nothing like, well, not only the book, but the entire universe I love so much.
So I would say that the best route for the trilogy would be either to follow Tolkien as much as possible or have a proportionate and sensible mix of the two.
Yes, yes, yes!
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 7 2014, 10:37am
Post #9 of 16
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I personally think the Mirkwood path sequence was way too short. I might have had more of them in Mirkwood and less of Laketown. One didn't really get the sense of claustrophobia that one does in the book. I liked the Stone Giants though not necessarily the way they were portrayed, but nice to have them in there. Yes, it was nice to have the interaction between Bilbo and Smaug, they did get most of Smaug's lines in just a shame it was followed by that cartoon action scene. I agree with you in general, however.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Apr 7 2014, 5:43pm
Post #10 of 16
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but I will stick to one portion of what you posted. This was in regards to the Mirkwood sequence in "The Desolation of Smaug". You stated:" Not only does the scene reflect the book quite well, accurately depicting the events and setting, but it adds something new and fresh, as well."
I beg to differ. The entire Mirkwood sequence was not dark, mysterious or scary. Key elements were left out. (The black stream crossing, the white deer, the eyes in the dark to name a few.)The It was far too short (as were several other sequences: ie Beorn) It was a total failure when compared to Tolkien's original. The Hobbit does not need to be new and fresh, it just needs to be told in a way that honors its brilliance and does not strain to connect it to The Lord of the Rings. KS
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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tsmith675
Gondor
Apr 7 2014, 5:48pm
Post #11 of 16
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I honestly don't understand the hate for the Roadt Mutton scene
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That's one of my favorite parts so far and I felt it captured the feel of the book extremely well. I absolutely love that scene, I just don't get the hate people have for it.
Our destiny lies above us.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Apr 7 2014, 6:01pm
Post #12 of 16
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Bilbo's sneaking around and then deciding to try his hand at burgling are straight out of the book as far as I am concerned (minus of course the infamous Talking Purse)! There is arguably a slight lack of logic in film!Thorin's decision, but considerably more than in Book!Thorin (and all Book!Dwarves') decisions to approach the mysterious fire one by one, the better to be popped into sacks by the Trolls...
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Sildarion~Valenar
Bree
Apr 7 2014, 7:01pm
Post #13 of 16
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I would say the logic in the film is weaker
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I would largely disagree that it is a "slight lack of logic". It is probably the biggest logical fallacies from the film.
The only two choices the trolls give are that they will kill only Bilbo or they will kill both Bilbo and the company. So how on earth can the second choice be chosen as in both cases Bilbo dies anyway.
Not to mention he still mostly a stranger to them - especially to Thorin and they have not much reason to risk their own lives and their quest for him.
the dwarves going in one by one can still be considered, since the dwarves in the book are not the warriors they are in the film. And most importantly - it is clearly a children's book. So it fits anyway as the book is not that serious in tone (initially).
But the film is trying to show a more realistic, serious tale, but then a large logical fallacy such as that again takes away the believability. Here, it doesn't fit into the kind of story that is being told.
PS: I do like the scene and not 'hate' it - I just believe t could have been executed better with some little adjustements. 
"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
~ Tolkien lets Faramir speak his own view on war and glory
(This post was edited by Sildarion~Valenar on Apr 7 2014, 7:05pm)
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Sildarion~Valenar
Bree
Apr 7 2014, 7:08pm
Post #14 of 16
(263 views)
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"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
~ Tolkien lets Faramir speak his own view on war and glory
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 8 2014, 3:32am
Post #15 of 16
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The troll scene is logical in the context
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of the Warrior dwarves. Remember that Kili (who is seen as reckless) goes in first, attacking and demanding they drop Bilbo. So Thorin's charge may not be for Bilbo so much as Kili. Besides, later in the movie Thorin puts himself in danger to pull Bilbo to safety on the mountain. It's portraying Thorin as a leader who puts his men first. Yes, the bunny chase was ridiculous, but the image of Thorin standing on the rock waiting until all his men are safe before he jumps to safety is what Movie!Thorin is all about. Book!Thorin would NEVER do such a thing. I actually wondered how PJ would reconcile Movie!Thorin with DOS!Thorin's total willingness to send Bilbo in by himself to face the Dragon and find the Arkenstone - AUJ Thorin would be the first man through the door - and sure enough, he was. I believe the more noble, self-sacrificing Thorin was planned to contrast with the "Dragon-Sickness" Thorin in DOS and TABA. So there is a logic, and part of the logic is that unfortunately, even good, wise men make bad decisions - even Gandalf. I'd explain but I'd be way off topic if I did.
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