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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 9 2014, 8:52am
Post #26 of 35
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I wonder whether Tolkien is blurring legal and moral rights here:
Legal rights being those which come with being authrorized to do something by the proper authorities, and moral rights being to do with one's own purpose and actions. That's a theme which comes up elsewhere - the one I immediately think of is that Frodo's honourable intentions in guarding the Ring offer him some protection against it.
In the Palantir case - Saruman could claim that he's legally an agent of the Kings of Gondor (as has been argued up-thread). But he is very clearly not using his palantir appropriately for that role, for the benefit of the realm. Indeed, he is a traitor to his role as an officer of Gondor, if he claims to have that role. So he has lost the moral right to use the stone.
Maybe that's also why 'skyping' your mates was discouraged back when the network was still intact?
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 9 2014, 9:41am
Post #27 of 35
(250 views)
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Amusing, or deeply un-reassuring?
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Researching for this chapter, I found that there is a software company 'Palantir Technologies' which makes computer systems for analysing large amounts of data. The tools are used for business purposes, but also for defence, counter-terrorism and anti-crime use:
Palantir Gotham is used by counter-terrorism analysts at offices in the United States Intelligence Community and United States Department of Defense, fraud investigators at the Recovery Accountability and Transparency Board, and cyber analysts at Information Warfare Monitor (responsible for the GhostNet and the Shadow Network investigation). http://en.wikipedia.org/...echnologies#Products
It did strike me that 'big data' is a good, if somewhat scary modern analogy to the palantiri. One hopes that this technology lives up to the technical promise the palantiri had in Middle-earth, rather than their less-than-edifying record of misuse, mis-interpretation and hacking by evil forces as presented in LOTR. Not sure I'd have chosen that name, if it were my company 
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 9 2014, 12:49pm
Post #28 of 35
(489 views)
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"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."
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While it was another Noldorin artifact, which should be enough to make us run the other way and shroud ourselves to boot, the Mirror of Galadriel did not seem to have a downside to it in that it didn't seem to drain or corrupt Frodo or Sam, or Madame G herself. She took Frodo to look in it because she thought he would benefit from it, and though seeing the Eye was scary to him, he also saw the bigger picture that he was a part of, and I think he needed that psychological boost after losing his friend and protector in Moria. She also told Frodo that his perception was keener as a result of that experience, enabling him to perceive more about her than others that get the capital "Wise" title. He needed that extra perception in his encounters with both Gollum and Faramir, so it was all to the good. And while Sam was upset by his vision, it ultimately galvanized his determination to continue the quest, so again, no harm done.
That's a great way of putting it. The hobbits seem to get some insight and wisdom from their (rather dreamlike) experiences with the Mirror, rather trying to get actionable factual information. It's the factual information search which so readily goes wrong with the palantiri, And, of course, they have Lady G to talk Sam out of wanting to rush back to the Shire. It makes me think that Lady G understands the limitations of her device (if 'device' is the right word) instead of being over-awed by it and over-estimating its abilities, like the palantir users and their hand-me-down tech.
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2014, 3:55pm
Post #29 of 35
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We had a thread a while back, asking if the other Big G should be in trouble for her Mirror
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What I took away from it was this:
Since she was allowing it to show her something, it fell under an 'art' rather than 'device' or 'magic'. Without the clouding bias of 'will' or 'power' she could see an objective view of events. Thus it was more natural and not uder the aegis of the evil of 'The Machine'.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 9 2014, 4:25pm
Post #30 of 35
(244 views)
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We had a thread a while back, asking if the other Big G should be in trouble for her Mirror by Rembrethil
Ah yes, it was this thread: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=718730#718730
I now wonder, however, whether Lady G doesn't have another excuse - Frodo (and probably Sam) are "meant" to take the Ring to Mordor and, as GuriousG points out she helps them be reconciled to that -so maybe she's not using her device hubristically to thwart the will of the Powers.
Perhaps?
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 9 2014, 4:44pm
Post #31 of 35
(241 views)
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Yes, I think I was considering the moral right of ownership of the Stone
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I wonder whether Tolkien is blurring legal and moral rights here:
Legal rights being those which come with being authrorized to do something by the proper authorities, and moral rights being to do with one's own purpose and actions. That's a theme which comes up elsewhere - the one I immediately think of is that Frodo's honourable intentions in guarding the Ring offer him some protection against it.
In the Palantir case - Saruman could claim that he's legally an agent of the Kings of Gondor (as has been argued up-thread). But he is very clearly not using his palantir appropriately for that role, for the benefit of the realm. Indeed, he is a traitor to his role as an officer of Gondor, if he claims to have that role. So he has lost the moral right to use the stone.
Maybe that's also why 'skyping' your mates was discouraged back when the network was still intact?
with Saruman moving into Orthanc seemingly on a unilateral whim and which JRRT writes, tone-wise, with a sense that it was not quite a correct thing to do, and would be disapproved of. Saruman disregarded Gondor after seizing Isengard, so he was not acting as its warden at that point - though he was handed the keys by Beren in that capacity ('nominally') he has certainly neglected it by the time of his moving-in day.
Potentially the keys and rights to Orthanc could have been revoked I suppose, on that basis...if there was anyone powerful enough to do so, or had the concern to do it. Another place where Denethor was a bit asleep at the switch?
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
**And Rem, you are doing that CoH chapter. Don't forget. **
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2014, 5:54pm
Post #32 of 35
(255 views)
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Motivation, not actionable intelligence
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Perhaps also, the reason of the Mirror was to provide impulsion in the person who looked into it. The metaphorical qualities of a 'mirror' lend themselves easily to the comparison. A 'tool' or 'device', such as a telescope, camera, or spy satellite, could distort the facts by providing a limited view, limits that are set by the user. A mirror, however, only reflects what one can already see, or the things in front of a person's own face.
Perhaps introspection was the aim of the Mirror, to confirm the hearts of the Fellowship, or any user, allowing them to test their resolve. It seemed to show things calculated to discourage the viewers, but in the face of the very probable dangers, the hearts of Frodo and Sam were encouraged or confirmed in their determination. Maybe it is a concentrated from of the testing that Galadriel gave the Fellowship? Maybe her own use of the Mirror gave her enough introspective sight to see that only the Hobbits would be required to face the gravest perils? As you say, they had to be heartened once more after viewing the Mirror, a veritable window to their soul.
Who knows what power one would have if you really 'Kn(e)w thyself!'? Perhaps you would attain the level of Galadriel? Maybe that test, in the presence of the Mirror, was the final examination once she actually faced the Ring and it's temptation. Maybe she had faced this peril in the Mirror, but now it was here before her, and her choice confirmed the virtue in the previous simulations.
In any case, seeing yourself truly and answering question: 'Who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?' would be quite terrible.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 11 2014, 1:10am
Post #33 of 35
(234 views)
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Great post, Rem, which has made me wonder if the Mirror was intended to be a useful spy satellite or a psychological/spiritual remedy. Tolkien gives us a great amount of detail on the palantiri, even saying they have poles and where you have to stand to use them, etc, but does he ever say WHY Galadriel created the Mirror?
To look back home at Valinor and Dad? To spy on Sauron? To watch the weather?
How often did she use it--weekly, yearly, only to impress guests with parlor tricks? Did she share it with Gandalf and Aragorn? Did Celeborn use it too?
I like your suggestion that it was meant more for introspection than as a liquid palantir. It seems to have some personality to it, or some guiding purpose, vs the palantir which just show you things you're looking at and enable telepathy and are functional but have no agency. The Mirror seems to *want* to show people things, and it's best when you let it show you what it wants to. Was this part of the growth that Galadriel needed, since she's learned that she can command it to show useful things, but it's better when it works its own will, hence she needs to understand that being a steward/guardian can be better than being a Ruling Queen?
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 11 2014, 5:59am
Post #34 of 35
(218 views)
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Yes, the plot does damage the concept...
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Thoughts are rendered as, and so presumably have the limitations of, words. This might be an important point...
But Aragorn says he showed Sauron the sword of isildur, and also himself in another guise. Now how does that work?
As a surveillance device, the palantiri can theoretically see anything which is not in darkness.
Wouldn't that bust prof. Shippey's theory you refer to in the next thread? Or is the orcs' torchlight enough to clealry see what was going on?
I find myself wondering whether Denethor knew that Saruman has a stone - and if so did they communicate with each other?
For sure he does - trust Denethor to know who else has the stones, and to distrust Saruman enough to suspect he uses it!
Also, in Minas Tirith Denethor tells Gandalf that he already knows of Saruman's defeat and events in Rohan - he could hardly not realise where Saruman was getting his news from.
For that matter, does Denethor know that Sauron has a Stone?
For sure he does. He knows perfectly well why the Stone wasn't used for generations, and draws his own conclusions. Gandalf seems also pretty sure the two did communicate - although Gandalf was obviously sometimes wrong (and some of Tolkien's later writings, inadvertently add more blunders to his list). But in this case is collaborated by the rumor of Minas Tirith reported by Beregond, that Denethor would sometimes struggle in thought with his Enemy.
For the matter, the whole discussion of one stone appearing blank when two others communicated - unless this was a bit of really old lore, must have had a source in the days when three palantiri were functioning and might have communicated.
Gandalf says/ speculates that Saruman can nowadays be compelled to use his stone.
I'm not sure he was indeed. He probably felt irresistably drawn to it, like people today become addicted to information.
How many shortcuts to news sites do you have in your favourites folder? And does that replace the old methods of newspapers, radio and television?
More important - does this really enhance your understnding of this world and the people who populate it? Or does it just drone on?
The palantiri are a modern element in the story - even more so than the Ring. Compare the 'unlettered' Rohirrim to the wise and subtle Saruman, chock-full of useful information - but overlooking the Ents, which unlike Theoden he does know about, but conviniently ignores as irrelevant.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 11 2014, 6:25am
Post #35 of 35
(258 views)
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Well, in my previous answer I did discuss the general implications
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Interestingly, Prof. Shippey does not compare it to contemporary media, only to crystal balls and similar stuff.
What do you think of this Prof Shippey analysis?
I assume you mean his famous theory regarding denethor seeing Frodo captured. Five years ago, in his brillaint discussion of The Siege of Gondor, I have expressed several reservations.
But one thing I really like about it is that Denethor managed to withold the information from Sauron - as well as the information regarding Frodo's ultimate quest! Even in his darkest hours of despair, he never let a hint of it slip.
We might want to compare and contrast the Mirror of Galadriel, which Lady G specifically warns “is dangerous as a guide of deeds”.
I must link to an old discussion, led by a.s. I am vain enough to think my own response there is worth reading (among the others). I've forgotten to add the gift to Sam as a part of Galadriel's surrender of her powers.
Thank you for this discusion! This was my first read-through of UT with the RR, and was quite fun!
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