|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 4 2014, 10:07am
Post #1 of 18
(664 views)
Shortcut
|
Chapter of the Week: Brass Buttons
|
Can't Post
|
|
AUJ Chapter of the Week: Brass Buttons Hello, everybody! This week we’re breaking down AUJ Chapter 25: Brass Buttons, the scene which features Bilbo fleeing from Gollum in the Goblin tunnels and narrowly escaping from being caught thanks to some rather unexpected circumstances. When I last hosted a CHOW (Chapter 18: The Defiler), I declared its runtime of 98 seconds a record. Well, forget that – we’ve got a new leader! Brass Buttons is even shorter – it’s mere 71 seconds long. But, oh boy, are these some tense minute and eleven seconds! So I ask you to join me on a short tour through yet another bit of Middle-earth magic! The scene begins with Bilbo hurrying through a cave, desperately looking for a way out. Gollum isn’t far behind – he can be heard snarling and shouting in the distance. "Give it to us!" he yells. 1. We hear Gollum before we see him. Do you find it an effective way to build up tension and create a sense of being followed (as the viewer is clearly meant to identify him/herself with Bilbo in this scene)? Gollum is closing on Bilbo. Bilbo sees him running past the entrance of the cave he’s in. He’s trapped. The only way out is through a small crack in the back of the cave. Bilbo goes for it, but gets stuck. Gollum hears him, backtracks and sees Bilbo. He begins to approach Bilbo, screaming "It’s ours. It’s ours!" 2. How well do you feel the actors convey the characters’ emotions in this scene? 3. On a scale from 1 to 10, how tense do you find this moment? Bilbo manages to free himself at the last moment, pushing as hard as he can and slipping through the crack. He loses his waistcoat buttons, though; as they’re ripped off in the process. But that’s not all – he also loses his balance and falls. The Ring, which he was holding in his hand, flies through the air and slides onto Bilbo’s finger as he tries to catch it. 4. What we have here are two examples of what I’d like to call "moving plot pieces": plot details from the book that have been placed in a different context in the film (Bilbo getting stuck and losing his buttons, the Ring "accidentally" slipping onto his finger). What do you make of this? 5. The shots of Bilbo falling and the Ring sliding onto his finger clearly mirror the famous scene with Frodo and the Ring at the Prancing Pony from FOTR. Do you like the connection that is made here or do you think it’s excessive/annoying? (Did you know that the Ring slips onto the index finger of Frodo’s right hand at the Prancing Pony, whereas it lands on Bilbo’s middle finger of his left hand in this scene? ) 6. "The shadow world" looks a lot different in AUJ (and DOS) from what we saw in the LOTR films, much less distorted and blurry, more "serene". Putting aside the obvious "technical" reasons (much more time is spent in "the shadow world" in TH, this includes scenes which feature dialogue – "the heaviness" of the old version simply wouldn’t have fit here), do you think there might also be an in-story explanation to this? Could it have something to do with the fact that Sauron "has not regained his full strength" yet? 7. What do you make of Bilbo’s reaction to this unexpected turn of events? How well do you feel Martin Freeman conveys Bilbo’s confusion in this scene? 8. Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, scenery, score etc.? 9. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations? Shoot!
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Apr 4 2014, 3:50pm
Post #2 of 18
(463 views)
Shortcut
|
I thought the shadow world in The Hobbit looked very similar to the one seen in LOTR when I saw it. It was clear they were keeping continuity, though as you say making it easier to see things since there are longer scenes in it. You could say it is slightly less scary/sinister because the ring is less powerful at this point in the story.
|
|
|
Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 5 2014, 8:32am
Post #3 of 18
(403 views)
Shortcut
|
A knider, gentler shadow world
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It would have to be. The ring's probably in its equivalent of comatosis after being in Gollum's possession for centuries. Stretching its' shadow world muscles surely will take a bit before it can achieve the sinister edge it displayed in LotR.
6. "The shadow world" looks a lot different in AUJ (and DOS) from what we saw in the LOTR films, much less distorted and blurry, more "serene". Putting aside the obvious "technical" reasons (much more time is spent in "the shadow world" in TH, this includes scenes which feature dialogue – "the heaviness" of the old version simply wouldn’t have fit here), do you think there might also be an in-story explanation to this? Could it have something to do with the fact that Sauron "has not regained his full strength" yet? I like the portrayal of this scene very much. Bilbo and Gollum were great in this bit. Cool CHOW by the way.
Elvenking enthrallment -------------------------- Thranduil Appreciation thread II Thranduil Appreciation thread
|
|
|
Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Apr 5 2014, 1:33pm
Post #4 of 18
(394 views)
Shortcut
|
(You said shoot, so I am!) 1. We hear Gollum before we see him. Do you find it an effective way to build up tension and create a sense of being followed (as the viewer is clearly meant to identify him/herself with Bilbo in this scene)? Maybe it's just me, but if I find Gollum himself creepy, I find his voice twice as creepy and therefore scary. The weird echoing doesn't hurt the scariness either. I think hearing him first is a great way to ratchet up the tension. In that screencap, Bilbo looks so delightfully Hobbity, doesn't he? I think it's because his cheeks look chubby. 2. How well do you feel the actors convey the characters’ emotions in this scene? I think this is a great instance of both actors using physical acting to great effect. The CGI folks did wonders with Gollum's facial expressions. I like the lighting in the screencap too: Gollum's face is about half in light, half in shadow. A commentary on Gollum's personality, perhaps? However, at the moment, both sides seem to be intent on retrieving the Precious and, possibly, lunch. 3. On a scale from 1 to 10, how tense do you find this moment? Originally it was probably an 8. (Now after *cough* dozen viewings, not so much. ) Bilbo manages to free himself at the last moment, pushing as hard as he can and slipping through the crack. He loses his waistcoat buttons, though; as they’re ripped off in the process. But that’s not all – he also loses his balance and falls. The Ring, which he was holding in his hand, flies through the air and slides onto Bilbo’s finger as he tries to catch it. It's a shame those buttons went flying. Those acorns are adorable. 4. What we have here are two examples of what I’d like to call "moving plot pieces": plot details from the book that have been placed in a different context in the film (Bilbo getting stuck and losing his buttons, the Ring "accidentally" slipping onto his finger). What do you make of this? I'm okay with moving things around, as long as they make sense. I don't mind them in this case. (PJ & Co. have a habit of putting one book character's words in the mouth of another, which can be a little disconcerting. I personally find it interesting to see how that changes the audience's perception of the character--for example, in the LOTR movies, it is Faramir who muses on the dead Haradrim soldier in Ithilien rather than Sam.) BTW, what is that roundish thing right "above" Bilbo's mouth in the screencap? Is it a vertebral bone? Ick! 5. The shots of Bilbo falling and the Ring sliding onto his finger clearly mirror the famous scene with Frodo and the Ring at the Prancing Pony from FOTR. Do you like the connection that is made here or do you think it’s excessive/annoying? People could find constant callbacks to LOTR excessively annoying? You shock me! Again, I don't mind this instance. I think the "accidents" are good reminders that both Frodo and Bilbo did not initially put the Ring on out of a suspicion that they could gain power or "powers" from it: in other words, their motives were pure. However, it's also a reminder that the Ring is not something that likes to sit around eating bonbons all day. PJ & Co. put a strong emphasis on the Ring's will, which is, of course, derived from the will of Sauron, whose malice is poured into it. Already it's working to get back to its Master, by latching on to a new "host." (Did you know that the Ring slips onto the index finger of Frodo’s right hand at the Prancing Pony, whereas it lands on Bilbo’s middle finger of his left hand in this scene? ) No doubt a reminder from the powers that be to a certain actor that middle fingers can be used for other things besides rude gestures. 6. "The shadow world" looks a lot different in AUJ (and DOS) from what we saw in the LOTR films, much less distorted and blurry, more "serene". Putting aside the obvious "technical" reasons (much more time is spent in "the shadow world" in TH, this includes scenes which feature dialogue – "the heaviness" of the old version simply wouldn’t have fit here), do you think there might also be an in-story explanation to this? Could it have something to do with the fact that Sauron "has not regained his full strength" yet? I like the theory that it's connected to Sauron's strength. I can't remember: did we see how Ring Vision looked for Isuldur? That would be an interesting comparison, since Sauron's physical form had recently been destroyed. 7. What do you make of Bilbo’s reaction to this unexpected turn of events? How well do you feel Martin Freeman conveys Bilbo’s confusion in this scene? I thought MF's reaction was a bit understated. I guess in Bilbo's place, I would have been scrambling to my feet with Sting in a defensive stance. (And giving myself away with all the noise.) I suppose he's still somewhat stunned by his fall. Obviously the vision thing is a big clue that something seriously weird is going on, but I wouldn't think "HEY! I'm invisible!" would instantly occur to him. 8. Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, scenery, score etc.? 9. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations? I'm assuming this scene was shot soon after the Riddles scene, very early in the filming process. I note that Bilbo's hair/wig is a bit floppier here than in some other places in the movie. I think it makes him look more like Ian Holm's Bilbo when he finds the ring, and more Tookish, like Pippin. And, by the way, thank you for your all-around enthusiasm, BF! You brighten up the place.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
|
|
|
Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Apr 5 2014, 2:45pm
Post #6 of 18
(378 views)
Shortcut
|
BTW, what is that roundish thing right "above" Bilbo's mouth in the screencap? Is it a vertebral bone? Ick!
It does look like a bone of some sorts. Here's a bigger version of this screencap in case you're interested: http://www.framecaplib.com/...es/hauj/hauj1302.jpg. There are bones and nassssty things all over that cave... Though at one time they must have been part of something tasssty and crunchable.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 5 2014, 3:58pm
Post #7 of 18
(370 views)
Shortcut
|
There are bones and nassssty things all over that cave... Though at one time they must have been part of something tasssty and crunchable. Check out this screencap: http://www.framecaplib.com/...es/hauj/hauj1297.jpg. Uuh...
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
Kim
Valinor
Apr 5 2014, 6:22pm
Post #8 of 18
(367 views)
Shortcut
|
1. We hear Gollum before we see him. Do you find it an effective way to build up tension and create a sense of being followed (as the viewer is clearly meant to identify him/herself with Bilbo in this scene)? Yes, I think that’s fairly effective, especially when at first Gollum’s voice is echo-y and far away, then suddenly much closer. The way the camera follows Bilbo, and the angle, are also really effective. And I love how Gollum slowly backs up when he realizes Bilbo is in the side passage – very menacing. 2. How well do you feel the actors convey the characters’ emotions in this scene? Very well. Poor little Bilbo is scared and just wants to get out of there, but finds himself in a maze, and Gollum is really angry and scary. 3. On a scale from 1 to 10, how tense do you find this moment? Hmmm, I’ll give it a 7. 4. What we have here are two examples of what I’d like to call "moving plot pieces": plot details from the book that have been placed in a different context in the film (Bilbo getting stuck and losing his buttons, the Ring "accidentally" slipping onto his finger). What do you make of this? Re: losing the buttons, I like how it was done in the book, but I was fine with how it was done it movie too. With the ring, the slow mo is a little too much for me, and the way the ring falls is a little overdone in how it wavers around before falling on his finger. 5. The shots of Bilbo falling and the Ring sliding onto his finger clearly mirror the famous scene with Frodo and the Ring at the Prancing Pony from FOTR. Do you like the connection that is made here or do you think it’s excessive/annoying? Well, it was a little obvious, but not too excessive or annoying for me, except for the slow mo. 6. "The shadow world" looks a lot different in AUJ (and DOS) from what we saw in the LOTR films, much less distorted and blurry, more "serene". Putting aside the obvious "technical" reasons (much more time is spent in "the shadow world" in TH, this includes scenes which feature dialogue – "the heaviness" of the old version simply wouldn’t have fit here), do you think there might also be an in-story explanation to this? Could it have something to do with the fact that Sauron "has not regained his full strength" yet? Yes, I suppose it could be that Sauron hadn’t regained his full strength yet. I like this version better as we can see more. 7. What do you make of Bilbo’s reaction to this unexpected turn of events? How well do you feel Martin Freeman conveys Bilbo’s confusion in this scene? Well, he’s just trying to figure out how to get out of this predicament he’s found himself in, all alone. After threatening Gollum with Sting a couple of times in the Riddles scene, it’s almost like he forgets he has it as he gets really scared and runs away vs. trying to fight Gollum off. The flight instinct takes over. I think Martin does a good job of conveying Bilbo’s fear. 8. Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, scenery, score etc.? Well, I like the ring theme of course. And I like how we hear the scrape of Sting on the rock as Bilbo gets up after falling, and realizing that Gollum couldn’t see him. 9. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations? Oakenshield watch: not appearing in this scene Thorin’s hair: although we technically can’t see it in this scene, we know from extrapolating from the previous scene that it looks awesome as the dwarves prepare to fight off the goblins. Thanks for the coming up with some good questions for the shortest chapter yet BlackFox!
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying “As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..." http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=719226;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed
|
|
|
Kim
Valinor
Apr 5 2014, 6:33pm
Post #9 of 18
(358 views)
Shortcut
|
Now after *cough* dozen viewings, not so much. Only a dozen viewings? That's not nearing enough to fully appreciate the subtle highlights and nuances of Thorin's hair in all it's glory. Better get a few more in before DOS arrives!
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying “As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..." http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=719226;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed
|
|
|
Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Apr 5 2014, 9:03pm
Post #10 of 18
(347 views)
Shortcut
|
You caught me. I should have typed *coughtencough* dozen.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 6 2014, 8:52am
Post #11 of 18
(344 views)
Shortcut
|
Thank you for your answers, Kim!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It's always lovely to have you around!
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
cats16
Half-elven
Apr 9 2014, 5:39am
Post #12 of 18
(312 views)
Shortcut
|
As per usual, I've neglected to respond for the week''s thread... I'll come back to this soon, though! (Seems like I'm saying this every week.)
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 9 2014, 9:41am
Post #13 of 18
(306 views)
Shortcut
|
I'll be looking forward to it!
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
cats16
Half-elven
Aug 10 2014, 6:45am
Post #14 of 18
(273 views)
Shortcut
|
I've sat long and hard, thinking for months on how to answer this one...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
AUJ Chapter of the Week: Brass Buttons 1. We hear Gollum before we see him. Do you find it an effective way to build up tension and create a sense of being followed (as the viewer is clearly meant to identify him/herself with Bilbo in this scene)? Oh, heck yes! This is an aspect of LOTR I wish had been used perhaps even more. Who better than Gollum to creep me out in a theater? That feeling of being followed--especially when one is lost and doesn't know the way out--ack, that's creepy and builds wonderful tension.
2. How well do you feel the actors convey the characters’ emotions in this scene? One of the film's best moments. Bilbo gives an exasperated wheeze of some sort, which I found myself doing while watching this the first time. I loved how well MF and AS conveyed Bilbo's sense of horror at this experience. Both contributed amazing emotions, creating a moment that stands out in memory.
3. On a scale from 1 to 10, how tense do you find this moment? 8 or 9. I think the moment from before, when Gollum screams and throws the rock at Bilbo is a pure 10. That moment still amazes me two years later as it did in 2012.
4. What we have here are two examples of what I’d like to call "moving plot pieces": plot details from the book that have been placed in a different context in the film (Bilbo getting stuck and losing his buttons, the Ring "accidentally" slipping onto his finger). What do you make of this? Interesting thoughts! While I would have loved to see the original buttons scene, I like how it was incorporated here. Yes, the location and context has been altered, but the spirit of the moment remains just as thrilling. And for the Ring, I think this is also a very good alteration. Sure, it feels like a callback to LOTR. Callbacks aren't bad things, IMO, as some would make it sound. But anyway, I think it's a neat way of leading to the book moment of having Bilbo follow Gollum while wearing the Ring. Again, the same spirit as the book, just different circumstances allowing for it to shine through.
5. The shots of Bilbo falling and the Ring sliding onto his finger clearly mirror the famous scene with Frodo and the Ring at the Prancing Pony from FOTR. Do you like the connection that is made here or do you think it’s excessive/annoying? I like it. It's from a different angle, giving it a different feel to the action. I think it hints to the idea of the Ring having a will, without complicating things and confusing the viewer by bringing up all of the questions associated with the concept of the Ring and its relation to Sauron and it's bearer. So yes, I think it's a well-done moment and doesn't seem cheesy or like a rip-off.
(Did you know that the Ring slips onto the index finger of Frodo’s right hand at the Prancing Pony, whereas it lands on Bilbo’s middle finger of his left hand in this scene? ) Yes, actually! I did notice that one. 6. "The shadow world" looks a lot different in AUJ (and DOS) from what we saw in the LOTR films, much less distorted and blurry, more "serene". Putting aside the obvious "technical" reasons (much more time is spent in "the shadow world" in TH, this includes scenes which feature dialogue – "the heaviness" of the old version simply wouldn’t have fit here), do you think there might also be an in-story explanation to this? Could it have something to do with the fact that Sauron "has not regained his full strength" yet? I like your explanation. And also, I think, it shows that the experience is not exactly the same for each bearer. Bilbo and Frodo dealt with it, but saw the experience in their own unique way. Visually, this is shown through a different lens of subjectivity. Similar, but different; the world is relative to the viewer (like the film itself--oops, drifting off topic again).
7. What do you make of Bilbo’s reaction to this unexpected turn of events? How well do you feel Martin Freeman conveys Bilbo’s confusion in this scene? I'm curious as to how viewers not familiar to LOTR would have seen this. I wonder if they, like Bilbo, are seeing the shadow world for the first time, and were just as confused-looking. Frodo's moment on Weathertop, then, will be its own experience. Wow, I've used the word 'experience' far too often here.
8. Any thoughts on the cinematography, editing, scenery, score etc.? Lots of Hobbit's-eye-view shots. I think it's a way of showing as much through Bilbo's perspective as possible, whilst keeping the hobbit in shot. I still find the set here interesting, in how it differs from my imagined Goblintown tunnels. I completely understand why PJ would choose to film this in a more open space. But, part of me wonders how the tunnel-like aspect would have contributed to the tension here (as well as the darkness). No complaints, just playing my imagination out and wondering how it differs.
9. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations? There, made it! Sorry for being...four months late. A Cat is never late, BlackFox; nor is he early. He responds to CHOW precisely when he means to! Shoot!
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Aug 10 2014, 8:07am
Post #15 of 18
(267 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm happy to have you here at last. (I hope I didn't come off too pushy in my post in the Feast of Starlight CHOW.)
And also, I think, it shows that the experience is not exactly the same for each bearer. Bilbo and Frodo dealt with it, but saw the experience in their own unique way. Visually, this is shown through a different lens of subjectivity. Similar, but different; the world is relative to the viewer (like the film itself--oops, drifting off topic again). Excellent point. I hadn't thought of this myself.
Sorry for being...four months late. A Cat is never late, BlackFox; nor is he early. He responds to CHOW precisely when he means to! No worries! Better late than never, as the saying goes. Thanks for the answers, cats!
“As he caught his footing, his head fell back, and the Milky Way flowed down inside him with a roar.” - Yasunari Kawabata, Snow Country
|
|
|
cats16
Half-elven
Aug 10 2014, 8:21am
Post #16 of 18
(263 views)
Shortcut
|
All you did was give me (not my uncle) a little nudge out the door. No worries.
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Aug 10 2014, 8:30am
Post #17 of 18
(267 views)
Shortcut
|
Now you can start working on your Mirkwood CHOW. Again. *runs away*
“As he caught his footing, his head fell back, and the Milky Way flowed down inside him with a roar.” - Yasunari Kawabata, Snow Country
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Aug 10 2014, 8:33am)
|
|
|
cats16
Half-elven
Aug 10 2014, 10:24am
Post #18 of 18
(260 views)
Shortcut
|
I'll have it done within two days. We'll see if I can hold to a promise with these, for once.
|
|
|
|
|