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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Faramir's origins
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 24 2014, 1:34am

Post #26 of 50 (261 views)
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I think it was [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no rape*

*Personally, I consider the "enchantments" with which Eol enticed Aredhel into his house to be a kind of rape, but Tolkien says she "wasn't entirely unwilling," so he apparently didn't.

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Yah I think the whole wasn't entirely unwilling was a nice way to smooth that over. Not being *entirely* unwilling isn't quite the same as consenting. Also Eol was clearly abusive in that he hardly allowed her outside, chased her down after she tried to flee and then killed her.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 24 2014, 1:40am

Post #27 of 50 (267 views)
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Could you elaborate on this? [In reply to] Can't Post

 There is even a form of 'rape' in the way Tom Bombadil takes Goldberry in the poem Adventures of Tom Bombadil

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squire
Valinor


Mar 24 2014, 2:04am

Post #28 of 50 (267 views)
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"But one day Tom, he went and caught the River-daughter" [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't mean to be rude by referring you to a previous discussion, so to sum up: In a 1934 poem about Tom Bombadil, who is not exactly the same Tom Bombadil of the LotR written in the early 1940s, he grabs Goldberry the water-nymph and drags her home, promising to be her "lover". I suggested that was a 'rape' in the older sense of the word, where a forced seizure or abduction mixed violence, shock, and fear on the part of the woman, whether or not a sexual assault directly followed:
He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
- "Adventures of Tom Bombadil" (1934, repr. 1962)

Geordie objected that I was taking it too far - as he pointed out, in the following stanza Tom and Goldberry celebrate a "merry wedding", so surely she was not forcibly deflowered. A variation on the "not entirely unwiling" dodge, I'd say. We left it at that.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 24 2014, 2:49am

Post #29 of 50 (255 views)
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Thank you for clearing that up. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 24 2014, 4:29am

Post #30 of 50 (244 views)
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I agree with you. [In reply to] Can't Post

But, as Squire points out, we have discussed this at some length, and many people contend that, as Aredhel was somewhat rebellious and adventuresome, she was initially attracted by his "bad boy" image. No one doubts, though, that it became an abusive relationship, however it started. There are any number of bad marriages in Tolkien, starting with Nerdanel leaving Fëanor.








Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 24 2014, 12:16pm

Post #31 of 50 (242 views)
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You're preaching to the choir, Liz. [In reply to] Can't Post

It wasn't me who was arguing that Faramir and Boromir might have been half-brothers. I think you meant to direct your post to DaughterofLaketown.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 24 2014, 12:17pm)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 24 2014, 6:01pm

Post #32 of 50 (227 views)
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Just agreeing with you! :-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 








Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 24 2014, 8:21pm

Post #33 of 50 (218 views)
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. [In reply to] Can't Post

That wasn't how I read the post. Not that I thought you were being harsh or anything--far from it. Some folks have occasionally gotten a person being quoted mixed up with the person posting. I should have known that you were unlikely to do that!

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell

Mar 25 2014, 5:13am

Post #34 of 50 (219 views)
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I read an interesting article about Aredhel... [In reply to] Can't Post

...pointing out the Eöl set up enchantments to lead her to his home. In other words, he desired her a tricked her into finding him. The author claimed that this could be considered rape. While I think that's a stretch, it does but a different color on the situation.

Regarding the half-brother theory (?), doesn't is say somewhere in RotK that Finduilas loved Denethor? Sure, she was unhappy being so far away from the Sea, but I don't remember there being any dislike of Denethor. It's been a while since I read RotK, though, so I could be remembering incorrectly.

I'm also struck by how similar Denethor and Faramir are at heart. They're both gifted men--moreso than their peers--who can see into the hearts of others. Yes, Denethor was probably sharper because of the Palantír, but he would have had to possess a strong will to begin with (and Faramir certainly possessed a strong will to be able to reject the Ring). The biggest difference between them is that Denethor was jealous/ambitious (which Boromir certainly inherited) while Faramir was humble and generous.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 25 2014, 1:41pm

Post #35 of 50 (203 views)
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Here is the quotation I was referring to... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Regarding the half-brother theory (?), doesn't is say somewhere in RotK that Finduilas loved Denethor? Sure, she was unhappy being so far away from the Sea, but I don't remember there being any dislike of Denethor. It's been a while since I read RotK, though, so I could be remembering incorrectly.

"She was a lady of great beauty and gentle heart, before three years had passed she died. Denethor loved her in his fashion, unless it were the elder of the sons that she bore him. But is seemed to men that she withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the Seaward vales set upon a barren rock. The shadow in the east filled her with horror, and she turned her eyes ever to the south sea that she missed." ROTK appendix A

This is what I was referring too. We see in this how unhappy Finduilas was and how even though Denethor loved her it never said anything about her loving him back.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 25 2014, 1:58pm

Post #36 of 50 (204 views)
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I would say that Denethor and Faramir's differences went a little deeper. [In reply to] Can't Post

As the Steward of Gondor, Denethor was king in all but name. He feared the loss of status that he and his oldest son Boromir) would have to endure with the return of the truk king. Sauron fed on that fear through Denethor's use of the palantir at Minas Tirith. Growing up as a second son, Faramir never expected to be his father's successor and had no ambitions in that direction.

Denethor also seemed to lack for the most part the quality of empathy and had little regard for the feelings of others. He seemed to care for his wife mostly for her ability to provide and raise an heir. Faramir took more after his mother and had a more gentle nature which his father mistook for weakness (especially in the films). I would still never suggest without some supporting evidence that anyone other than Denethor was Faramir's father.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 25 2014, 2:12pm

Post #37 of 50 (199 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Growing up as a second son, Faramir never expected to be his father's successor and had no ambitions in that direction.

Denethor also seemed to lack for the most part the quality of empathy and had little regard for the feelings of others. He seemed to care for his wife mostly for her ability to provide and raise an heir. Faramir took more after his mother and had a more gentle nature which his father mistook for weakness (especially in the films). I would still never suggest without some supporting evidence that anyone other than Denethor was Faramir's father.

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Something we agree on! I am glad someone agrees with me that Finduilas' marriage wasn't necessarily happy.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 25 2014, 2:56pm

Post #38 of 50 (202 views)
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Ah Faramir!! My favourite character [In reply to] Can't Post

We had a bit of a discussion about him a while ago here.

I'll simply leave this thougth here in memorial to this great character:

I think Faramir is a bit more personable than Aragorn, and I like him better for it. I felt the connexion of trust with him when I first read the character. He seems to be more of the hero, brought down into a lower position so that we can admire, learn from, and emulate him. That is why, I think, the Men of Gondor loved and respected him. He was not a distant lord and unreachable leader-- his morals were unapproachable, not his person. We need high ideals exemplified, to look up to (Aragorn0, but we also need the people who will get down into the dirt and show us how to take the high road.


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Mar 25 2014, 3:54pm

Post #39 of 50 (218 views)
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Our threads go ever on and on [In reply to] Can't Post

Our threads go ever on and on
Down from the post where they begin
Now far ahead this thread has gone
And anyway I've messed up the rhyming scheme: bother.

Pursuing it with weary feet
Until it meets a hyperlink
Where many older threads it meets
And whither then, I dare not think

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


demnation
Rohan

Mar 27 2014, 5:25am

Post #40 of 50 (192 views)
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Every time I think of poor Celebrian [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel a little glad that Tolkien didn't try to push that envelope too often.

"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 27 2014, 11:54am

Post #41 of 50 (187 views)
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Yes I think her end was pretty terrible. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am glad he spared us a lot of detail.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 27 2014, 2:07pm

Post #42 of 50 (178 views)
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Celebrian suffered, but she presumably got better [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I am glad he spared us a lot of detail.



At least Celebrian did not die. She suffered from the trauma of what she endured as long as she remained in Middle-earth. However, she must have eventually healed when she returned to the Undying Lands. Of course, she was still without her loved ones until Elrond returned with the other Ringbearers at the end of the Third Age; even then, her only hope of seeing her children again might have been in the Halls of Mandos (at least with Arwen) as they tarried on the way to discover the Fate of Men. As the sons also remained behind, it is often presumed that they also became mortal, but Tolkien is not entirely clear on the subject.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 27 2014, 2:29pm

Post #43 of 50 (177 views)
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A question. [In reply to] Can't Post

As the sons also remained behind, it is often presumed that they also became mortal, but Tolkien is not entirely clear on the subject.

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Where does it say this?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2014, 2:59pm

Post #44 of 50 (166 views)
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The veiled menace is often more fearsome for the reason of the unknown [In reply to] Can't Post

He left it to open to our imaginations, and that can be a powerful thing-- allowing us to conjure up our own horrors.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Mar 27 2014, 3:08pm

Post #45 of 50 (166 views)
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It never was specified what happened to Elladan and Elrohir [In reply to] Can't Post

Though it was said that they stayed in ME for a while into the Fourth Age. IIRC they were not at the Grey Havens, thus not on the 'last ship', but then you have the Legolas-and-Gimli-sailed-West tradition, so, if counted as true, it was really 'the next-to-last ship'.

It was probably just an Elven historical nomenclature mistake. They got cocky when they pegged the 'Last Alliance' as the last alliance of Men and Elves (Regardless of PJ's version of Helm's Deep), so they went ahead and Cirdan christened his ship with a dramatic name. Can you imagine how mortified they must have been if Gimli and Legolas made it?Laugh

'Hey! We were the last ship!'

'Well..., not anymore!!'Crazy

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 27 2014, 3:09pm

Post #46 of 50 (169 views)
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The Choice of the Peredhil [In reply to] Can't Post

The choice of the Half-elven is explained in LotR Appenix A; this is a summary given by Robert Foster in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth:

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At the end of the First Age, the Peredhil were given the choice of which race they wished to belong to. Elros chose to remain with the Edain, and he was given by the Valar a life-span many times that of lesser Men. Elrond became an Elven-lord of geat power and wisdom. Elrond's children were also given the choice of which kindred they wished to belong to; the choice was to be made when Elrond left Middle-earth. All three of his children chose mortality.



He assumes that Elladan and Elrohir chose mortality because Elrond's sons remained in Middle-earth when the Ringbearers departed, as we are told in Appendix B:

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But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris [Rivendell] to dwell with the sons of Elrond.


'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Mar 27 2014, 4:24pm

Post #47 of 50 (159 views)
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Oh [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you. I had no idea.


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 27 2014, 7:19pm

Post #48 of 50 (167 views)
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Letter 153, to Peter Hastings, Sept. 1954 [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As the sons also remained behind, it is often presumed that they also became mortal, but Tolkien is not entirely clear on the subject.
Quote


Where does it say this?


"Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."

So, they could have taken a later ship, like Legolas; become mortal; or remained as Elves and "faded" (the eventual fate of all Elves who don't go over sea).








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 27 2014, 7:22pm)


MirielCelebel
Rivendell


Apr 5 2014, 1:46am

Post #49 of 50 (145 views)
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This is a great post [In reply to] Can't Post

and the comments make it even better. If I may shed some light on the anomaly of Faramir (at least from a writer's perspective). Tolkien mentioned in one of his letters that Faramir was an impulse character. He said he did not know who he was, "but there he was, the brother of Boromir" (this quote was paraphrased and I'll have to find the exact letter for a reference). Needless to say, Tolkien added Faramir into the story as he went along so that is also how his story and his role developed within the narrative. Faramir has always been one of my favorite characters because the odds are so stacked against him and he is dealt such a hard hand but he overcomes, and his relationship with Eowyn truly gives him the joy he so justly deserves. He loved his brother, though they were very different, and I think Boromir and his memory definitely affected Faramir's decisions; this was both to make him proud of his decisions and to avoid making the decisions he knew Boromir would have made, especially concerning the Ring. The fact that this character was almost an afterthought could explain why he stands out. It is also interesting to note Faramir was the character with which Tolkien could most assimilate and admitted he wished he could be as brave as Faramir.

"The Road goes ever on..."


Calardan
Registered User


Apr 10 2014, 5:07pm

Post #50 of 50 (126 views)
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A Númenor; and nothing more. [In reply to] Can't Post

Faramir was wise and clever because he was educated. This becomes apparent when you factor in that his life was steeped in the misery of middle earth, in his early childhood. Faramir and Boromir loved and respected eachother deeply, and this connected Faramir to the great lineage into which he was born. He learned later from tutelage by Gandalf about his and mankind's own past. This knowledge of history would have affected his demeanor and sense of scale. It would have also sobered him into questioning the machinations of the Enemy, where and whenever he may meet him. His life would have prepared him in a unique way by the time of the WR, to adapt and succeed. Faramir was only ever hampered in small part by his duty to the stewardship of Gondor from making his abnormally intelligent, calculated decisions. I think that Faramir and his attitude are really evocative of the importance of history that is reflected throughout the legendarium. The fact that his mother was named for an elf in some ways hints at his being spiritually or metaphorically half-elven though it is extremely apparent that he was a normal human, and clearly of the same parents as Boromir. Faramir is, as stated above, a man out of his own time, in a time that needed people just like him. The powers set against middle earth at the time of the WR were ancient, it would follow that the heroes of middle earth were in some ways ancient as well.

Aiya Eärendil elenion ancalima!

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