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shadow0421
Bree
Mar 11 2014, 12:46am
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Question about Frodo sailing West
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Reading "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" and I have a question about letter #246. Tolkien talks about how Frodo gained passage to the West and in an asterisk section at the bottom of the page he says that Arwen put in a plea to Gandalf or Galadriel or both that Frodo be given passage to the West. Tolkien says it was without doubt Gandalf that granted that plea. This is new to me. I knew that Frodo could go because he was a ring bearer but didn't know that Gandalf made the final decision. Who pleaded for Sam's crossing? I guess Gandalf made the decision because Sam also helped carry the ring? Was that Gandalf's reasoning? If anyone can expand on this, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 11 2014, 8:04pm
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Who gets to go, who says so, who's the authority???
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An interesting question Shadow. Personally I don’t believe there is a definitive answer. We can only speculate. Although it is intimated that Arwen “gave up her place” on a White Ship to Frodo, this cannot be! As she chose mortality she no longer had a “place” to give up. And, as you (and Tolkien) say she simply “put in a plea to Gandalf or Galadriel”. (I reckon the plea held more weight with Gandalf as Galadriel was possibly under some sort of scrutiny and grace after her involvement with the revolt of the Noldor; just a thought.) And Tolkien says, “No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea”. And quoting from the footnote you mention Tolkien says: “Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at embarking or at the landing.” (my italics). But, of course, this doesn’t answer the question of other non-Elves or non-Maiar that were given this “grace”. e.g. Samwise, and (possibly) Gimli.
So the question might be – who was the final arbiter that gives the grace as to who may take a White Ship? But Gandalf was a Maia and I believe he was given this singular authority (Frodo and Bilbo’s passing) by the higher Powers. Could it work something like this?:
“For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.” (From RotK Many Partings). So there was a type of telepathy among the Elves (and Maiar). Could not this “thought transference” extend to Aman wherein reside the True Authorities? Thus Gandalf would begiven the authority to grant Arwen’s plea possibly from Manwe himself? This could also answer the questions of Sam and Gimli as Legolas would have this telepathic ability to plead Gimli’s case (along with Galadriel’s intercession); and whatever Elves traveled the White Ship with Samwise could have intervened on his behalf (perhaps a particular Elf-friend that is not recorded?).
Just some off-the-cuff thoughts…. Cheers
From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .
-Bilbo Baggins
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Mar 11 2014, 8:07pm)
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dik-dik
Lorien
Mar 11 2014, 9:32pm
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Though I believe the ultimate impulse for the mortals' admittance to the West must have come from the One, and was declared by Manwe (and either through him as mediator, or from Eru directly, further declared by Gandalf).
Besides Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond (and possibly Yavanna herself, given Sam's occupation?) might have put in a good word for Sam, plus there was the fact that two Ringbearers were already given the grace. For sam and Gimli alike, I imagine that foresight and the sudden revelations from whatever out-of-Arda source also played a part in their decision to sail West.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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PhantomS
Rohan
Mar 14 2014, 2:23am
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Sauron isn't the only Eye watching.
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it is very possible that Eru Illuvatar or Manwe, king of the West have been watching everything that has unfolded throughout the Ring's entire existence and made the decision to allow the ring-bearers passage,including Sam. Cirdan himself began building ships through a vision by the Valar, so it's likely he would get some kind of green light for Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. Gandalf also has a 'direct link' to his bosses (like when he died) so he may have given a hint or two to Frodo at some time. No one protests Frodo's going, in fact the Elves are glad he and Bilbo are going to the West with them.
Gimli's passage may have been the only one debated by the Valar, but Galadriel would have been paramount among the Noldor at this point and made a good case for the old Dwarf to go to Valinor.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 14 2014, 6:52am
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Cirdan himself began building ships through a vision by the Valar
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Hmmm!
I've often wondered if The White Ships didn't make round-trips?
Why not?
I agree with all that it is likely that Illuvatar, down through Manwe, down through Gandalf, down through whomever, would be the decision makers here. Eru Illuvatar foremost even though he chose to "sit and harken"; the admitance of mortals would be so unusual that he would "stand and declare".
I don't believe as apparently some do that Gandalf HAD "Authority", but that he was simply GIVEN a temporary authority.
I'm sure Gilmli made many Elf-friends during his 120 year friendship with Legolas. Along with Galadriel's supplication and his ripe old age (262 yrs.) he was a shoo-in. Late night thoughts.....
From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .
-Bilbo Baggins
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Mar 14 2014, 6:54am)
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PhantomS
Rohan
Mar 16 2014, 4:06pm
Post #7 of 9
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There are no movies on this flight
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In the First Age the Elves that got to Valinor were so relived to be free of Morgoth and his darkness that going back was not really worth it. In any case only the Vanyar and Noldor sailed, the Teleri who followed Olwe all got on one half of Balar and they were ferried across (the island is now Tol Eressea).
After the First Age and Elves who wanted to visit men visited Numenor, attended royal weddings and sailed ships up and down the two western continents. After Numenor sunk however Eru 'bent the seas' and made it impossible for ships to return for the most part. The way was opened for the Istari, and according to some notes, the second coming of Glorfindel (who had died in Gondolin).
As the White, Gandalf does not take orders apart from the Valar- he was appointed to the Istari by Manwe, who speaks with the will of Eru Illuvatar. When Earendil arrived on Valinor the Valar were the ones who made the decision to give him the choice. Yet when Ar-Pharazon arrived with his war fleet the Valar gave up and let Eru take charge. Hence it's always a case-by-case situation.
No one really knows how Gimli got into Valinor, or why a Dwarf would even go to the Sea (they hate it) but it is likely that Galadriel asked for it, either by herself of through her father Finarfin or uncle Fingolfin or even grandad Finwe, who would be king of the Noldor. As Gimli was probably dying by then it would be a just reward for his deeds in the War of the Ring to be buried with his race's creator present.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 16 2014, 8:53pm
Post #8 of 9
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Hey! Get yer White Ship tickets here!
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In the First Age the Elves that got to Valinor were so relived to be free of Morgoth and his darkness that going back was not really worth it.
Which doesn’t negate the possibility of a minimal White Ship crew making round trips.
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When Earendil arrived on Valinor the Valar were the ones who made the decision to give him the choice.
I’m not sure what choices Earendil had once he came to Eldamar? He was set to sail the nighttime skies in his ship as a symbol of hope to Middle-earth dwellers. (At least this seems the preeminent version of his fate.)
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No one really knows how Gimli got into Valinor, or why a Dwarf would even go to the Sea (they hate it) but it is likely that Galadriel asked for it, either by herself of through her father Finarfin or uncle Fingolfin or even grandad Finwe, who would be king of the Noldor. As Gimli was probably dying by then it would be a just reward for his deeds in the War of the Ring to be buried with his race's creator present.
I don’t think Galadriel “asked for it” until the Valar were beseeched by Legolas (& possibly other Elves); only then would she speak on Gimli’s behalf, as it most likely would never enter Galadriel’s mind that Gimli would want to take Ship with Legolas.
And, hey, as you say, if Gimli were dying, this could be quite an incentive to take a nice cruise.......
Cheers
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Meneldor
Valinor
Mar 17 2014, 3:00am
Post #9 of 9
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I think I'll add "take a white ship cruise" to my bucket list too.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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