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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Confirmation of Sauron/Smaug alliance?


Feb 13 2014, 4:50am

Post #1 of 14 (975 views)
Confirmation of Sauron/Smaug alliance? Can't Post

From AUJ till the very end of DOS we've been given so many hints.


1. Gandalf at the White Council. "A dragon could be used to terrible effect."


1. Prologue. "The Lonely Mountain troubles me deeply, Thorin" And it isn't because Gandalf wants the Dwarves to get their home back (well he kinda does but it's a secondary objective); it's to deal with the dragon so that Sauron doesn't get a hold of him.

2. Orc interrogation. "The FLAMES of war are upon you" and then "They mean to unleash a weapon"

3. Smaug being up-to-date with everything. "Oakenshield" and "A darkness is coming."

4. Sauron's eye flashing right before we cut to Smaug's enlarged eye.

5. "Something made of gold, but far... more... precious." We all know how "precious" is used in these movies... The word was no coincidence.

The biggest "confirmation" of this alliance is during the orc interrogation. When Thranduil says "They mean to unleash a weapon so great..." the Smaug theme plays very audibly in the background. We all know how Shore and PJ use music and I think this is a pretty solid confirmation that we will see something of this alliance.

But what it is, I cannot say. I do not think we will see Sauron bring Smaug back to life but if the films have been developing on this notion for so long; what will we see?

I can imagine TABA opening with a Ringwraith recruiting Smaug. But then this would need to lead somewhere...

What do you guys think will happen? Will we get a development on this "alliance" or will this all culminate in Smaug's death? There isn't much room to establish anything prior to his death I'm afraid - unless if it's a flashback - given that he is flying towards Laketown already as DOS ends. Would the writers have Sauron re-animate Smaug?

Or is Smaug actually Sauron? A longshot but not too far off I guess. Bilbo takes off the ring because he's near Smaug and that sets off an indescribable series of emotions. He looks pained right before Sauron pops up and then takes it off and we see Smaug glaring at Bilbo (and if you notice, Smaug's eye flinches towards Bilbo's hand that's holding the ring). But if Smaug was Sauron then Smaug would simply take the ring...

This is all so confusing.

Thoughts? Ideas?

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Feb 13 2014, 5:21am

Post #2 of 14 (636 views)
Or is Smaug actually Sauron? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can all but guarantee that isn't true. Anger from Tolkien fans would hit critical mass, and besides, it adds nothing to the story but confusion.

As for Sauron talking to Smaug, I'm not so sure about that either. Smaug was buried in his gold implying he's been sleeping for quite a while. He infers a lot of things based on his knowledge of dwarves and the Oakenshield family line. I don't think Sauron would know about the Arkenstone driving anyone mad, nor does he know that Bilbo carries the One Ring. I think Smaug did his homework before taking over the mountain and is an expert on reading facial cues.


Feb 13 2014, 6:00am

Post #3 of 14 (595 views)
How does Smaug know [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin is "Oakenshield" now?

Yeah, the Smaug being Sauron remark was just a side note. I didn't think it would be very feasible.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.

The Shire

Feb 13 2014, 7:58am

Post #4 of 14 (634 views)
I'm intrigued. [In reply to] Can't Post

Best post I've read on here in a long time! You bring up very interesting points. These very well could be clues that will ignite a firestorm (no pun intended) amongst book analysts.

If this is to happen in one way or another I will gladly give Peter and his team benefit of the doubt to see what they create. He has already taken many liberties, which I personally believe enhance the story for the most part.

I love the fact that he's making this classic story even more cohesive with the Lord of the Rings even if it wasn't intended by Tolkien. Peter and his team are artists using their passion to create their interpretation of what they imagine.

If what you say turns out to be true, this will be one HELL of a six film set. And if the book enthusiasts are unhappy…well… it's not the end of the world. There's bound to be other interpretations in their lifetime. After all, Hollywood remakes just about everything these days…even 'The Naked Gun' (Sadly) or so I hear.

Tol Eressea

Feb 13 2014, 4:48pm

Post #5 of 14 (438 views)
Why couldn't they keep Sauron's involvement with Smaug as a "what if?" scenario like it was in the book? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why does Sauron have to have his hand in every bit of evil in the world of Middle-earth? Not really liking the direction Jackson is taking this. Someone should have told him that not everything in this story has to be modified to link up with LotR, Sauron, or the damn Ring.

Tol Eressea

Feb 13 2014, 5:24pm

Post #6 of 14 (406 views)
Someone's got a case of Prequelitis!// [In reply to] Can't Post



Feb 13 2014, 6:24pm

Post #7 of 14 (394 views)
Prior knowledge [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
How does Smaug know Thorin is "Oakenshield" now?

Yeah, the Smaug being Sauron remark was just a side note. I didn't think it would be very feasible.

Smaug could have learned of the Battle of Azanulbizar before he began his sixty-year nap. Since then, his sleep could still have been disturbed by agents of Sauron. Most likely by one or more of the Ringwraiths (or a lesser Wraith), although Orcs could have dug a passage through the rubble of the Front Gate.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 13 2014, 6:24pm)


Feb 13 2014, 7:09pm

Post #8 of 14 (372 views)
The Ring may answer to Sauron alone ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

but Smaug ("I kill where I wish, when I wish") doesn't seem he'd answer to anybody.

Maybe they just played up concerns about Smaug's danger in the film to make it more understandable to a movie audience with no familiarity with the story, why they would all risk so much to go to Erebor.

In the book the primary motivation of the dwarves can appear to be plain greed. In the film that was shifted more to a desire to regain their homeland and right old wrongs, at least for the dwarves, although greed is hovering around in the background and will come more to the forefront in TABA. But all that still doesn't really explain why Gandalf would get involved or risk Bilbo to get involved. However, a Gandalf who is concerned about a dragon's potential danger, would incur that risk. In that case the films might not go any further with it, and not reveal or exhibit any Smaug / Sauron alliance, because whether or not it exists doesn't really matter - from Gandalf's perspective, it *could* happen, and that is enough for him to step in and head it off before it happens.

You bring up a lot of good points, and I do think the films have gone to some effort to play up the potential danger and Gandalf's concerns about them. But my opinion is that they're not going to pursue it further, I think it was added just to lend more credibility to the characters' motivations - particularly Gandalf - so the film movie goer accepts the premise that a wizard would accompany these individuals on this quest, because he has this concern.

Hamfast of Gamwich

Feb 13 2014, 7:18pm

Post #9 of 14 (375 views)
where it will lead [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think we need to see anything as explicit as Ringwraiths visiting Smaug. As as the clues you point out show, it's pretty clear what is going on.

I think that Smaug's death will lead to Sauron sending his armies to the Mountain to try to avoid a dwarf stronghold being formed. This will empty Dol Guldur and mean that Gandalf can escape (with the White Council's help). Sauron will then go to Mordor.

"Durin's Heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it. We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Beyond the shadow of the gate it waits for you still: Durin’s Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin’s Folk walk again in Moria.”


Feb 13 2014, 8:58pm

Post #10 of 14 (359 views)
What were Sauron's orders to the Orcs he mobilized? [In reply to] Can't Post

unless Sauron has a palantir, his intel is still limited. Smaug is still alive and still in the Mountain when he sends his soldiers forth. I think that Sauron's plans are two-fold:

1. He wants to send Smaug against Lothlorien or Rivendell and he has already recruited the dragon or thinks that he can control him.

2, His Orcs were to continue around the Lonely Mountain and bring the remaining Orcs and goblins of the Misty and Grey Mountains under his control.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Feb 14 2014, 3:05am

Post #11 of 14 (318 views)
It's Implied but [In reply to] Can't Post

Will never culminate because of smaugs death. It was a dream is saurons that won't come true and gandalfs premonition to get to the mountain foiled saurons plans.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!


Feb 14 2014, 4:21am

Post #12 of 14 (307 views)
Exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron's only immediate chance for success is to unite the various Orc-tribes of the mountains and crush any potential resistance before it can solidify. Unfortunately for him, that won't happen because: 1) The White Council acts before his Orc-army is prepared and Sauron is forced to withdraw from Dol Guldur; and 2) His Orcs and Snaga-goblins are soundly defeated in the Battle of the Five Armies to the point where it will take them decades to replenish their numbers.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Feb 14 2014, 9:52am

Post #13 of 14 (345 views)
Imho... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it is very likely that it will stay just this: a what if.

The only thing that is implied so far imho is that Smaug feels or realizes that Evil is gathering... but I assume with his character (both book and movie) it is logical to assume that he wouldn't fancy to risk his treasure for Sauron who can hardly offer him much more treasures than he already has.

“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

Night Wolf

Feb 16 2014, 12:45pm

Post #14 of 14 (290 views)
Bridge Movie plot [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no published evidence, that J.R.R. Tolkien ever considered Smaug to be anything other than an independent actor in Middle-earth’s conflicts. However there is this one passage in “Durin’s Folk”, published in The Lord of the Rings.

"Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon, Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved."

This seems to confirm Ronald's idea that Sauron, could use a dragon 'to great effect', such as his predecessor Morgoth had done before. It's vague though.

Michael Martinez wrote an essay years ago, located at the Middle-Earth role playing website (MERP). It's called the Sauron Strategies. It's written very, very well. I'll append an excerpt here.

Maybe it will lend an insight in the interest to this back story. Personally, I don't know how Smaug could possibly know, that Sauron had an interest in him. The movie seems to indicate our favorite dragon knew of Sauron's ring in Bilbo's possession, implicitly. Maybe it was a sense of the 'darkness' vs. 'step into the light' conflict; which the dragon implicitly understood.

- - -

(from Martinez)

By 2941, Sauron was probably convinced the One Ring was no longer in the region of the Gladden Fields.

The White Council moved against him and he retreated from Dol Guldur. Mirkwood is said to have become a cleaner, more wholesome place for a time. Such a transition implies that Sauron did not simply retreat from Dol Guldur. It suggests that there was a wholesale migration eastward of Orcs, Men, and whatever other creatures were directly under his control. While some people argue that the White Council's action may have consisted of some sort of magical attack, it is more likely that Lothlorien sent an army into Mirkwood. The Istari and the Lords of the Eldar may have challenged the Necromancer's sorcerous power directly, but Sauron pulled back and thereby preserved a great part of his forces.

The retreat suggests that Sauron was no longer willing to risk his primary armies in open combat, or to allow them to act by proxy. On the other hand, in the north, Bolg (son of Azog) launched a campaign against the small company of Dwarves, led by Thorin Thrain's son, who returned to Erebor. After the death of Smaug, Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Orcs all converged on the mountain to seize the treasure which Smaug had guarded there for 170 years. Was Bolg acting on Sauron's orders, or had Sauron lost control over the Orcs of the Misty Mountains? If Sauron approved of or permitted Bolg to launch the attack, then he allowed considerable resources to be committed to an action which might have secured a base in the north Sauron could use against Thranduil. But it also left Sauron without close support from the Misty Mountains. Had Bolg gained control over Erebor, Sauron would have been in a position to crush Thranduil and bring reinforcements against Lothlorien without hindrance. But when Bolg drew off the Orc armies, Lothlorien had a window of opportunity in which to take action.

If Bolg was therefore to be Sauron's proxy in the north, Sauron would himself be able to return to Mordor with all the forces of Dol Guldur. Instead of spreading his resources across three major bases (Mordor, Dol Guldur, and Erebor), Sauron could have consolidated his strength in two very defensible regions, both of which could be easily reinforced and resupplied from the east. Hence, because he had not risked everything, Bolg's defeat at Erebor only delayed Sauron's plans. Tolkien says that three-quarters of the Orcs of the north perished in the Battle of Five Armies. It would require several decades for them to recover their numbers. In the meantime, as the Northmen rebuilt the Kingdom of Dale and the Longbeard Dwarves rebuilt the Kingdom of Erebor, Sauron returned to Mordor.

Klaatu... Verata... Necktie. Nectar. Nickel, Noodle...Nikto!

(This post was edited by Night Wolf on Feb 16 2014, 12:56pm)


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