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Scourge of the Stoors
Rivendell
Jan 22 2014, 6:11pm
Post #1 of 16
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Frodo as the Main Hobbit: Did they drop the ball?
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I'm sure this has been discussed plenty of times in the past, but I believe it deserves bringing up again.
Throughout The Lord of the Rings films, Frodo is portrayed as the main character. In the books, it was more wishy washy, but Tolkien has suggested that it is actually Sam.
Since Frodo is the main character now, do you think they dropped the ball? Personally, I feel like not only did they drop the ball by making Frodo weaker, but they dropped it again by making him the main character.
Let's examine the books. In the books, Frodo was wise and hardy. He seemed tough, which made it all the more impressive that the Ring was crippling him by RotK. In the Shelob sequence, he valiantly shines the Light into the spider's face, making her temporarily back down. Sam remarks that people will sing of that moment. Still, he is not as pure and selfless as Sam, and in the end, Sam shines through as being the more likeable character.
In the films, Frodo's vulnerability is overplayed to the point where he seems almost inept. He doesn't ever really get the opportunity to carry his own weight in any dignified way. He's almost always a liability to the Fellowship and later Sam, rather than an asset. In the film's Shelob scene, he only accidentally shines the light in her face, and then proceeds to yelp and moan as he hacks his way through her webs in a frenzied panic. People make a fuss about the weakening of Denethor, but I have much more of a problem with what they did to Frodo. Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who saw the films before reading the books. Sam, while reduced to a something of a crybaby, is otherwise just as dignified and likeable as he was in the books. Now, the gap is even more obvious, with Sam being the catalyst of bravery, common sense, relatability, and resilience, and Frodo representing pretty much every opposite.
This would be fine if further emphasis were placed on Sam as the main character, but no. In fact, the opposite was done. I watched these films again with some friends who had never seen them, and when that camera panned in on Frodo instead of Sam during the "You bow to no-one" moment, one of them said "I feel like Sam doesn't get enough credit."
And he's right. Despite Frodo being a weaker character in the films, he is still bizarrely forced down our throats as the main character. This is probably my biggest gripe with the LotR films.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 22 2014, 6:23pm
Post #2 of 16
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Sam was the Romantic Hero. He went on the quest, fought the monster, came back home, put things right, and married the girl.
Frodo was the Germanic Hero. He was destined to stand on the brink of the Crack of Doom and have his finger bitten off. Despite many adversities and many temptations to turn back, he persevered and was true to his destiny.
Interestingly, Tolkien does refer to Sam as "the chief hero" of LOTR in Letter #131:
I think the simple ‘rustic’ love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere laborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero’s) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the ‘longing for Elves’, and sheer beauty.
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May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 22 2014, 6:23pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jan 22 2014, 10:05pm
Post #3 of 16
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Your friend's reaction was spot-on
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I watched these films again with some friends who had never seen them, and when that camera panned in on Frodo instead of Sam during the "You bow to no-one" moment, one of them said "I feel like Sam doesn't get enough credit." I think this is the reaction you're meant to have, both book and movie. Frodo is the "official" hero and Sam's heroism is played down so that it's left to the reader (or movie-viewer) to appreciate him for themselves. And in a way I think that makes you appreciate him all the more.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 23 2014, 2:25am
Post #4 of 16
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I also have always had a problem with movie Frodo. To the point where now I often just press the FF button. At times he was and still is hard to bear. His whining and dragging just gets me nervous. I also have a problem with celebrating Frodo on general because the fact is he failed. No matter how someone twists it, he failed. Yes, he took the One to Mount Doom, greatly supported by Sam, and at the end he failed. Had he been left on his own, the One would have been saved and everyone of his friends' heroism - wasted. That's my opinion, it's walways been such and I just can't celebrate Frodo. But I do celebrate Sam. True friendship is a rare thing and I know Tolkien also knew it.
Middle earth recipes archive
I believe
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Kendalf
Rohan
Jan 23 2014, 2:31pm
Post #5 of 16
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May I offer an alternative view?
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In the films, Frodo's vulnerability is overplayed to the point where he seems almost inept. He doesn't ever really get the opportunity to carry his own weight in any dignified way. He's almost always a liability to the Fellowship and later Sam, rather than an asset. (And yet) Despite Frodo being a weaker character in the films, he is still bizarrely forced down our throats as the main character.
I'd like to disagree here, if I may 
Yes, there are plenty of times when Frodo seems bereft of the ability to defend himself but:
1) There are also plenty of times when he does exhibit exceptional bravery. It's Frodo that clenches his fist and aks "What must I do?"; it's Frodo who offers "I will take it!" even though he knows not the way and is quite evidently beginning to be aware of the Ring's malign nature; it's Frodo that chooses to abandon his comrades and set off alone in order to save their lives; it's Frodo who realises how to exploit Gollum's knowledge and frees him as a result; it's Frodo who refuses to confess to Faramir the nature of his quest etc
2) His accentuated vulnerability in the trilogy, I believe, makes a great deal of narrative sense. Once Jackson had made a great deal of the Ring's sentience and malign and corruptive nature, a robust Frodo upon whom it exercised only minimal influence would have seemed contradictory. And, despite his fatigue, his weakness and his bad-temperedness, his many positive character traits still manage to shine through, even whilst he's trudging agonisingly across the blasted wasteland; resilience, determination. A hero, in my view, can be broken, can be prostrate on the ground, and yet still exhibit heroism.
3) I also think that making him the indisputable central character made sense from a cinematic viewpoint as, essentially, it posed audiences the question: "Could you handle this? Look what it's doing to this gentle hobbit." Increased empathy for Frodo, I suspect, resulted in increased engagement from audiences.
I, for one, am happy with Jackson's direction for the character and think Wood did an exceptional job of realising it
"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 23 2014, 3:13pm
Post #6 of 16
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It's Frodo that clenches his fist and aks "What must I do?"
After he says "You must take it!" and then "We'll put it away. We'll keep it hidden, we'll never speak of it again."
It's heartbreaking how Frodo goes from "you" to "we" to "I". He finally realizes it's all on him.
I'm very glad Jackson didn't turn him into Frodo Schwarzenbaggins. There are other ways to show strength besides hitting people.
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May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jan 23 2014, 3:14pm
Post #7 of 16
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I agree with you that movie-Frodo is heroic despite the fact that he sometimes shows weakness. It's easy to pick out bits of the story where he doesn't behave as heroically as in the book, but for me at least, he makes up for it in other ways. It's true, as the OP says, that he behaves much less heroically in Shelob's Lair, but right after he escapes he behaves generously and heroically towards Gollum, sparing him and trying to explain what he has to do "for both our sakes", even though by then he knows he has been betrayed.
One of the big differences between the book and movie, I always think, is movie-Frodo's genuine empathy and friendship for Gollum. In the book, Frodo treats Gollum kindly, and protects him when Sam and Faramir offer to get rid of him, but he never really opens his heart to him. Of course, it turns out to be a mistake for movie-Frodo to have trusted Gollum, but it was a brave and generous reaction all the same.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jan 24 2014, 1:24am
Post #8 of 16
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But he somehow gets up again every time. That's a hero.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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FoFo64
Rivendell
Jan 24 2014, 6:31pm
Post #9 of 16
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Everyone has defended Frodo fantastically...
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so there's not much for me to say! However, I would like to posit another possibility. I would wager that if Sam had been the ringbearer he too would have failed. I think no one would have succeeded in dropping the ring when on the cracks of doom. The ring's power is far too powerful there. That Frodo fails serves as a means to demonstrate the importance of empathy and pity, versus vengeance and killing, when we see that Bilbo's demonstration of pity/empathy allowed for Gollum to destroy the ring, accidentally.
I also have always had a problem with movie Frodo. To the point where now I often just press the FF button. At times he was and still is hard to bear. His whining and dragging just gets me nervous. I also have a problem with celebrating Frodo on general because the fact is he failed. No matter how someone twists it, he failed. Yes, he took the One to Mount Doom, greatly supported by Sam, and at the end he failed. Had he been left on his own, the One would have been saved and everyone of his friends' heroism - wasted. That's my opinion, it's walways been such and I just can't celebrate Frodo. But I do celebrate Sam. True friendship is a rare thing and I know Tolkien also knew it.
'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film
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Kelly of Water's Edge
Rohan
Jan 24 2014, 8:25pm
Post #10 of 16
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Great post - and I would take it further.
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All four of the Hobbits represented different types of heroes.
Sam represents the hero who comes home to enjoy the fruits of his trials and everything the fighting was for (Merry and Pippin have elements of this too, but the very fact that they were drawn back east in their old age knowing it would mean they would almost definitely never see the Shire or even their children again hints to me that they never got over the war quite the same way Sam seemed to have).
Merry represents the traditional war hero crowned with laurels for great deeds.
Pippin represents the boy who went to war and came back a man.
And, finally, Frodo represents those who made the ultimate sacrifice and didn't get to enjoy life afterwards.
Each was exactly where fate needed them to be and played roles contributing to victory for which they were qualified due to different strengths and personality traits. In Frodo's case, he was the only one of the four who would have spared Gollum and allow him to play out his role - and the heavy implication is that Gollum was needed because no one would have had the strength to toss the ring on their own.
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jan 25 2014, 1:23am
Post #11 of 16
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More From Frodo's Public Defender Office
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Hello Scourge,
It's a tricky comparison since you're getting an author's original conception and then Jackson's very complicated cinematic one since he strives to be faithful to the books--but the big switches Jackson pulled on the book storyline put sometimes put each Frodo in a very different position though their most severe wounds and perils stay pretty close.
Book Frodo ends up sustaining a sting (Shelob), a knife wound (Weathertop), and one less finger (Gollum's bite) and he was responsible in some way for all these sufferings--foolishly separating from Sam and captured by Shelob, putting on the ring at Weathertop in a moment of weakness, and nearly throwing the whole quest away at Mt. Doom, not doing what he was tasked to do. (Brilliant concept by JRR, it took all Frodo's strengths too, working through his flaws to get the ring to the point of destruction and it was Gollum's greed that plunged him and ring to their doom, saving Middle Earth.)
Book Frodo also gives away ring secret dancing on tables at Bree, and tries to stand up to Black Riders at the Ford, but is paralyzed with fear and they break his sword and will with their dark spells. Can't do fair compare there, since movie Frodo is too ill and needs Arwen's tremendous courage, riding skills, brinksmanship with the King Ringwraith at the river crossing to save him.
Movie Frodo learned of the Ring's dangers and responded right away, undertaking the quest without hesitation--one of my fave Elijah moments--he has no idea what he is in for but asks simply, "What shall I do?"and so goes forward. Book Frodo wanted to hang out all summer in Bag End, and Gandalf needed to prod him to get on the Road.
For your spider peril compare, Book Frodo filled with aggression and maybe some ego--the eyes backed down to me and i have the ring, the elf sword and the glass--chases after Shelob with miserable results. Movie Frodo is alone, having sent Sam away due to Gollum's psych job, with Gollum plotting with the big spider to do him in. He actually makes it into the lair itself, sees a spider as big as an suv that wants to eat him, and ends up having to hack his way out of a huge net snare singlehandedly with Gollum taunting him. And he's also deep into the bowels of Mordor itself, with regiments of marching orcs, trolls, ringwraiths flying to war. I don't know about you, but I did not find movie Frodo's position to be very enviable, and it was a thriller to see him escape, for the time being. Book Frodo chose foolishly, movie Frodo did his best under harrowing conditions.
In the end, I feel both book and movie Frodos served the purposes that Tolkien and Jackson wanted, a small hobbit, not a warrior, wizard or elf lord, relied on his own unknown reserves of great courage and stamina, good heartedness, decency, on the whole good moral treatment of others, even in the face of perils and temptations we cannot imagine. The most powerful beings in Middle Earth could not find a way, but the humble halflings did. Book Frodo and his movie descendent did themselves quite proud and earned their passage to the Blessed Realms.
Thanks, The Thirteenth Warrior.
(This post was edited by the 13th warrior on Jan 25 2014, 1:29am)
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elaen32
Gondor
Jan 25 2014, 7:49am
Post #12 of 16
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I love this analysis of our heroic hobbits
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I always thought it was touching that Merry and Pippin felt drawn back east to end their days. And rather tough on their families- one assumes that their wives had passed on and their offspring all grown adults living their own lives.
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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Scourge of the Stoors
Rivendell
Jan 29 2014, 3:26am
Post #14 of 16
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That at the very least, the camera should have lingered on BOTH Frodo and Sam during the "bow to no-one" scene. Not just Frodo.
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FoFo64
Rivendell
Jan 29 2014, 2:37pm
Post #15 of 16
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but I think they made it pretty clear that the Gondorians were thankful to all four hobbits. When they bow down the camera pans out and shows the entire crowd bowing down to all four of them. It takes a couple seconds before it starts zooming into Frodo. And I feel it's quite warranted, given the fact that he was the Ringbearer and the one that underwent probably the most significant amount of physical and psychological traumas. Emphasis on psychological.
That at the very least, the camera should have lingered on BOTH Frodo and Sam during the "bow to no-one" scene. Not just Frodo.
'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Jan 29 2014, 7:53pm
Post #16 of 16
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as I read it, the point of the zoom-in to Frodo was the way he was looking at that moment - unlike the others, his expression said as clearly as anything "All these people are bowing to me - and I don't deserve it."
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