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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
'What Say You' ~ The Hobbit Movie ~ Reports, Rumours & Rumblings ~ Howard Shore to score the Hobbit ~ Jan 08
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DiveTwin
Rohan


Jan 29 2008, 6:58pm

Post #26 of 44 (112 views)
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No Contacts Yet For Returning To Film In Matamata [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just in New Zealand a few weeks ago and went back to Matamata for a second tour of the Hobbiton site via Rings Scenic Tours (was also there a year ago). Before coming I wrote them in December about "The Hobbit" being filmed there and would that affect the tours. They replied they've not been contacted at all, despite rumors to the contrary. A few weeks later when I arrived that was still the case (was there on January 4th). There's thought that because most of "The Hobbit" happens inside Bag End (for the Hobbiton scenes) and that Peter Jackson has a ridiculous amount of film left over from LOTR, it's possible that they may not need to film there again.

However that works out, I just hope they use the same site for continuity purposes, whether that's footage shot from before or whether they go back and revisit Matamata for shooting. I know one thing - if they DID go back to Matamata, it won't be the somewhat secretive "film to be named later" type of environment like when first filming LOTR. The security would have to be amazing.


(This post was edited by DiveTwin on Jan 29 2008, 6:59pm)


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 29 2008, 7:25pm

Post #27 of 44 (87 views)
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Use the Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

...the Ring 'button' third from the right above that says "Search Posts," that is. Laugh The "Search" box in the upper right part of the screen hasn't worked in ages.


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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 29 2008, 7:37pm

Post #28 of 44 (110 views)
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"the movie needs to show them Bard earlier" [In reply to] Can't Post

What is it about movie audiences, that would make them unable to handle the introduction of Bard at a point which gives book audiences no difficulty?

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entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 29 2008, 8:08pm

Post #29 of 44 (104 views)
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Because in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

you can go back and re-read parts where you missed something. That's not possible in movies.

Bringing in the hero at the last moment is the kind of deus ex machina that doesn't work well in books, either. That's what I meant in my earlier post about Tolkien going outside the conventions of literature. The dual climaxes in The Hobbit, followed by a big battle, provide similar examples.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


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FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 29 2008, 9:56pm

Post #30 of 44 (89 views)
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Tolkien's structure [In reply to] Can't Post

for The Hobbit is flawed, I'd say. It works fine as a children's story, because its very episodic nature is perfect for reading in short chapters, with breaks in between. There's lots of typical Tolkien inventiveness in the individual episodes, but the overall structure doesn't hold the story together well, it seems to me.

If The Hobbit were made into a TV series of a number of half-hour episodes, you could probably get away with the simple linear structure and the introduction of new characters (such as Bard) in later episodes. That format would be much closer to the way people experience reading a book. But a movie needs to have a strong overall pattern to allow an audience to absorb the entire story at one sitting over a couple of hours. It has to be structured more like a play than a novel. I feel it would be a serious mistake to try to make a movie that simply aped all the quirks of a book. It would be great if a creative way could be found to preserve some of the more beloved quirks in a way that would fit the demands of a dramatic format. But just copying the quirks willy-nilly would probably only show them up for the flaws they fundamentally are.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 29 2008, 10:20pm

Post #31 of 44 (91 views)
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This. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien's structure for The Hobbit is flawed, I'd say. It works fine as a children's story, because its very episodic nature is perfect for reading in short chapters, with breaks in between. There's lots of typical Tolkien inventiveness in the individual episodes, but the overall structure doesn't hold the story together well, it seems to me.

If The Hobbit were made into a TV series of a number of half-hour episodes, you could probably get away with the simple linear structure and the introduction of new characters (such as Bard) in later episodes. That format would be much closer to the way people experience reading a book. But a movie needs to have a strong overall pattern to allow an audience to absorb the entire story at one sitting over a couple of hours. It has to be structured more like a play than a novel. I feel it would be a serious mistake to try to make a movie that simply aped all the quirks of a book. It would be great if a creative way could be found to preserve some of the more beloved quirks in a way that would fit the demands of a dramatic format. But just copying the quirks willy-nilly would probably only show them up for the flaws they fundamentally are.


QFT (Quoted For Truth)

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 29 2008, 11:10pm

Post #32 of 44 (81 views)
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I never thought about that [In reply to] Can't Post

But you are completely correct.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Bard, earlier. Though goodness knows *when*.

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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 29 2008, 11:23pm

Post #33 of 44 (106 views)
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You're hearing voices? *studies Elven from a distance* ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

Oooo... the singing and voices representing the various species? Elves, he'll probably use the established melodic, sweet, inspiring voices... but Mirkwood is a bit darker than Lothlorien and Rivendell, so maybe there'll be a twist there. Mirkwood is probably going to be menacing and eerie; the Goblins, Lake-town... this is gonna be great!!! *twitch*




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Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 29 2008, 11:26pm

Post #34 of 44 (75 views)
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*mods up* You are such a joy and inspiration! [In reply to] Can't Post

We're so lucky to have you and your passionate expertise to help us understand and appreciate Shore's work. I'm serious. You have made the sounds and songs of Middle-earth so much richer with your never-ending brilliance and generosity.

Thank you, Magpie. I hold you in awe.




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 29 2008, 11:33pm

Post #35 of 44 (66 views)
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Excellent! Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you that there are hours and hours of footage that has been stored away for just this purpose. I'm a firm believer that Jackson always has had the hope/plan to eventually do The Hobbit, and would have taken advantage of the extensive sets as much as possible for anything that could surface in The Hobbit. The Trolls, Rivendell, Hobbiton, Bag End... lots of places to be revisited that could be sitting pretty in some computer waiting for the lights to come on ;)




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 29 2008, 11:35pm

Post #36 of 44 (71 views)
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Hammers and nails [In reply to] Can't Post

The hard part was creating the plans and look of the sets for LotR. That's already done... so all they need are hammers and nails and the steward of the specs!




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Jan 29 2008, 11:35pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 29 2008, 11:38pm

Post #37 of 44 (78 views)
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Flawed for film? [In reply to] Can't Post

Or flawed as a novel? Isn't Don Quixote similarly episodic? Man of La Mancha certainly has more of a dramatic through-line, but is it a better work? Is the structure of The Hobbit simply a quirk, or an inherent part of its quality?

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Jan. 21-27 for "Flight to the Ford".


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 30 2008, 6:30am

Post #38 of 44 (68 views)
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Unconventional doesn't always mean flawed. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit works for what it is and works well. If a "hero" present through the film did in Smaug, it might fit better with convention, but might also seem unrealistically contrived. In life, it does not always happen that way. David slew Goliath. . . in a conventional translation, maybe Saul would have managed it.Unsure

Bards intro in lake town was fine in the animated. I can see him being introduced in the halls of of Thranduil (a la David Bowie as Elf king. . . thats right, I'm still saying it!ShockedLaughLaugh). But I cannot see him introduced earlier than that. Delete the Master like the animated did, and give Bard more lines, but giving him too much air time, means taking it away from other main characters needlessly.

THe Arkenstone works fine. It is Bilbo's way of trying to mediate a peaceful aversion to a coming conflict. He could not get it before Smaug's fall. If Smaug went nuts over a cup, he might have leveled the entire mountain over the Arkenstone. The battle also came where it should. It had been building every since Gandalf did in The Great Goblin. But no army dared assail Erebor whilst Smaug still lay in leviathan glory upon his treasure. If a work is too formulaic, it risks becoming stale science, rather than vibrant, bon vivant Art.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 30 2008, 7:36am

Post #39 of 44 (80 views)
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LOL Elven! ...Let's see...ideas for motifs.... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Thanks Magpie, Elven, and everyone! You guys rock. I don't know how this musical pre-production stuff works, so this is very educational. Awardsdaily says on their front page that reportedly Shore was "instrumental" (lol) in getting Del Toro for the film, Del Toro had in fact worked on a NL film in the past. I'm sure promises of a fruitful director-composer relationship played a part here.

I have no doubt that if Shore is currently working on the bones of the score, it is coming from the "skeleton outline" of the 2-film treatment that Jackson presented to Harry Sloan at MGM a year or so ago.m The one that got Sloan so excited that it made him call SHaye up and tell him that PJ getting involved wasn't NOT an option.

Challenges abound for Shore this time around. In fact, it might be more difficult this time around, precisely b/c unlike with LOTR he is not approaching ME afresh. Which raises the following questions and possible scenarios.

1)The Shire/Hobbiton/hobbits.
--Should Shore resurrect "Concerning Hobbits" in whole form, even for a complete stanza of phrases, or would it be too much like the EE? And as to the state of the Shire itself.....60 yrs before, the rest of ME was at peace, but storm clouds are gathering on the horizon. The first beginnings of clouds. Dol Goldur etc. Unbenknownst to them of course.
a)Should Shore up the tension by suggesting a bit of this "phantom menace"? The musical equivalent of Jackson having the Gandalf and Frodo crossing the bridge toghether in the cart--a haunting foreshadowing of the bridge in Moria?
b)Should Shore have the Shire music be the same, to suggest continuity, or should he even attempt to suggest a different musical "feel" to it..and how far back in the past should he go? It was easy for Pippin';s song in Minas Tirith, to have him wrack his brain for a song from the time before the Shire was a safe, settled land...the hobbit' dangerous "pioneer" days. But can/should he go a bit "prehistoric" here? But dare we suggest a "Long Winter" like theme for Bilbo--have in fact TWO Bilbo motifs, like there were 2 Gollum motifs (Slinker/Stinker). A kind of "timid Bilbo" vs "Tookish" side of of him, theme. (hobbit innocence vs the darker, more adventurous side.) and how much could this alternate theme suggest the Shire's--ie the hobbits' own distant, darker past. And how can you link these, seeing as SHore seems to have established that the "hobbit instrument" is the flute? What would an "unconventional hobbit theme" sound like?

2)The challenge to create music for "Goblins", NOT orcs, though we will all see orcs onscreen of course.

3)What WOULD Gollum's music sound like anyway, as he is stationary, in the cave.....how can Shore seamlessly suggest the evil creature he is in the process of becoming, yet still keep him relatively harmless, a figure from a kid's book. Should he veer too much from the LOTR sheet?

4)The Elves....Rivendell...ohhh, that's a novel in itself. Scoring this might be the hardest of all.

5)In the 2nd film....Dol Goldur. Problems similar to the Hobbiton theme. We will find out the Necromancer is Sauron. But John Williams had this problem in the SW films 1-3 when we all knew Palpatine was The Emperor, but how did he build up the tension nevertheless. How early do your intriduce whatever Dol Goldur motif he creates, should it be anything like in LOTR, can you even get away with a musical giving away of the plot so to speak. Good prequels challenge viewers even if they think they know the answers already. And should we see it in the first or 2nd film? One of my favorite scoring moments was going back to Boromir in Rivendell and finding out just how early the Gondor Theme had been written.

6) Elves of Mirkwood vs Elven of Rivendell. How do you suggest differences YET similarities in the races.

7) I beleive the Arkenstone should have its own motif, as the Ring did and the Evenstar. It would be great if Shore could make it really menacing in some way, as if it were the cinemtic suggestion of an latter-day heir of a Silmaril--which it literarily is, all the trouble it caused.

*) and how Do you make an unconventional motif for Smuag, that make shim truly frightening and unlike other film dragons? How wouls Shore put "Glaurung" onscreen?


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 30 2008, 6:33pm

Post #40 of 44 (58 views)
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I meant flawed as a novel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Or flawed as a novel? Isn't Don Quixote similarly episodic?


Don Quixote was of course the first "real" novel, and as such kept a lot of the traditions of earlier "romances", even as it poked fun at them. Still, the episodic novel has had quite a long run - it was very common in the 18th century too - Tom Jones is a well-known example. The episodic novel certainly belongs to a particular, older convention, and I expect Tolkien was deliberately harking back to that older tradition with The Hobbit. Even so, I think that The Hobbit suffers from an imbalance in the story-telling, as it moves from being a slightly comic children's story to the darker tone towards the end. It's almost as if he decides to tell a different tale altogether as he moves towards the end, and brings in a number of elements that haven't been foreshadowed or otherwise prepared for. I find it a litte unsatisfactory as a novel - it doesn't have that satisfying feeling of completion somehow, perhaps because Tolkien drags in battles and "historical" episodes that don't really have much to do with Bilbo.

I wonder how well known The Hobbit would be now if there had been no LotR? Would the vibrancy of the world have made up for the awkward structure? No work of art is perfect, of course, and in some of them the imperfections themselves become an important part of their character. Perhaps that's the case with The Hobbit.


...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 30 2008, 11:56pm

Post #41 of 44 (54 views)
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It doesn't strike me as him telling a different tale. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

rather it is a tale that grows in the telling. As Bilbo goes from his simple life, coerced by The Great Wizard Gandalf the Gray, out onto a rousing adventure. . . and then discovers that adventures, however romantic they may at first seem and despite the wondrous moments involved, also have horrors and can end in grief. I don't see it at all as an imbalanced tale.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 31 2008, 4:46pm

Post #42 of 44 (34 views)
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I think The Hobbit is unbalanced [In reply to] Can't Post

if you judge it by the normal rules of novel-writing. So is LotR, come to that. That's because, as you say, the tales "grew in the telling". It's an important part of what we love about Tolkien's writing - his great creativity seems to come from the organic way his tales grow in the telling, and we probably couldn't have the one (the amazing imagination) without the other (a quirky disregard for the way fiction is normally structured).

So although I'm claiming that The Hobbit is structurally "flawed", that doesn't mean that I don't think it's a wonderful story and told in a way that suits it very well. I just don't think that a film could just copy Tolkien's structure and get away with it. The book holds together by some magic of its own, but it's so structurally "unsound" that if you tried to copy the same building method for a movie, you'd probably have a cave-in! To use Tolkien's own metaphor of a story as a tower, it would be nice if the movie-makers could find some way to make their own version of the tower look as quirky as the book's tower - but they'll have find a way to strengthen the foundation, I think, if they want their tower to stand!

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 1 2008, 3:39pm

Post #43 of 44 (23 views)
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Pipeweed will do that to you ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 1 2008, 6:58pm

Post #44 of 44 (58 views)
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Not to mention the Gaffer's home brew! ;-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.

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