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DwarfTosser
Registered User
Jan 20 2014, 9:24pm
Post #1 of 17
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Gandalf in ROTK: sloppily written?
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Re-watched the LOTR movies again the other day. It seems like they were really rushed script-wise by the end of ROTK. For instance, the things that come out of Gandalf's mouth toward the end don't really make any sense.
"Frodo has passed beyond my sight": What sight? Up to that point, he never had any idea where Frodo was.
"10,000 orcs stand between him". 1) that number seems laughably small and 2) if he's passed beyond his sight, how does he know?
"I've sent him to his death": where does that sudden defeatism come from?
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 20 2014, 11:40pm
Post #2 of 17
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He may be referring to a feeling rather than visual.
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It is possible he could telepathically feel Frodo due to the Ring but have little clue as to his whereabouts.
Yes, the 10,000 orcs was way to small...identical to Helm's Deep.
Sending him to his death was a distinct possibility all along, even if successful in destroying the Ring - as was shown in the film - massive explosion, lava etc.
The biggest fail for me in an otherwise fantastic film was the whole Witchking scene. Film wise, they felt they had to make him the stand in for the physical presence of Sauron and greater than Gandalf only to fall to Eowyn. I don't think it was necessary.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 20 2014, 11:43pm)
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Jan 21 2014, 2:21am
Post #3 of 17
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I disagree. It seems to me you're looking for something that's not there. Of course he's lost Frodo from his sight once Frodo entered the deep shadow of Mordor and I don't see how you don't understand it. Gandalf is not an average Joe. May be (re)reading the books will help? Eyes don't see far. I also find 10 000 orcs completely relevant, an example. The Uruk-Hai army was bred espcially to destroy the world of men (Aragorn) and was the same number using magic (Saruman). Again, it was bred to destroy the world (!) of man. Sauron doesn't need millions of orcs to defeat him. Even in this condition he is still Sauron. And he's not attacking at this moment. As about Frodo being sent to death, why do you think it's sudden? Of course he was. And Gandalf knew how more probable this end was than any other. He said it more than once. It was fool's hope to believe Frodo would survive. I wouldn't call this defeatism but objectivism.
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flying-machines
Registered User
Jan 21 2014, 5:43am
Post #4 of 17
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I must disagree with your opinion on Gandalf's "sudden defeatism." I'd say that Gandalf has always feared the possibility that Frodo might die, and he feels responsible for Frodo's fate. This is truly one of my favorite parts of Return of the King - here are a few additional scenes that highlight how much this weighs on Gandalf's conscience.
It starts at their confrontation with Saruman, with his line, "Gandalf does not hesitate to sacrifice those closest to him, those he professes to love. Tell me, what words of comfort did you give the Halfling before you sent him to his doom? The path that you have set him on can only lead to death." Saruman clearly strikes a nerve here; Gandalf breaks eye contact and looks at the ground.
A little later at Edoras, Gandalf actually confesses to Aragorn that Saruman might have been right. Aragorn offers him some comfort, but despite Gandalf's optimistic words here, I don't think his fears were assuaged.
A: Every day, Frodo moves closer to Mordor.
G: Do we know that?
A: What does your heart tell you?
G: That Frodo is alive. Yes. Yes, he’s alive.
His expression is troubled all the way through the conversation except for a fleeting hint of a smile. At his last line he breaks eye contact again. Seems to me that he's grasping at straws here and isn't as confident as he wants Aragorn to believe.
All this culminates when the Mouth of Sauron flaunts the mithril coat as "proof" that Frodo is dead. The anguish on Sir Ian's face is heartbreaking in this moment. Later, for a brief second, Gandalf realizes that Frodo is alive and that he succeeded in destroying the Ring - but then Mount Doom erupts and Gandalf's joy and relief turn to horror again.
An absolutely beautiful character arc, I think.
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jan 21 2014, 11:47am
Post #5 of 17
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that was 10,000 orcs wide and 100 miles long, and I lined them up across Mordor, there would be 10,000 orcs to get past if you want to cross from one side to the other - but I'd have a lot more than 10,000 orcs in total. You'd probably get two orcs to the yard, so multiply by 1760, that's 3,520 per mile if they're lined up one by one. If the line is 10,000 orcs wide, then that's 35,200 per linear mile.
Given the catering implications, even from Sauron's perspective it is possible to have too much of a bad thing - a few miles of orc would be more than enough for the job in hand.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jan 21 2014, 3:53pm
Post #6 of 17
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heading west at 2 leagues per hour and a band of Uruk-hai leaves Orthanc heading east at 1.5 leagues per hour, which way does the elf turn to take the hobbits to Isengard?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
(This post was edited by Meneldor on Jan 21 2014, 3:54pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 21 2014, 4:07pm
Post #7 of 17
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Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in April, 2014. We hope to see you there!
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Annatar598
Rohan
Jan 21 2014, 8:22pm
Post #8 of 17
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Thanks for this! A great read.
I just finished my seventh (not joking) marathon of LOTR and you're making me embark on an eight...
You're absolutely right - Gandalf's arc is beautiful. These expressions I didn't catch. I had thoughts yes, but never concrete conclusions about these expressions.
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor
Jan 21 2014, 10:19pm
Post #9 of 17
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I disagree with your main point but agree somewhat with your thread title
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As others have mentioned, Gandalf has a fantastic arc in the trilogy, and his characterisation just keeps getting stronger with the new Hobbit films. While there were a number of wonderful moments for Gandalf in RotK (His crowning of Aragorn, his leadership at Minas Tirith, his speech about the line of kings etc), there were also a number of let-downs, chief among which were his treatment of Denethor and his confrontation with the Witch-King. Hitting Denethor in sight of his guards was not a great decision, and the writers made Gandalf (Gandalf the WHITE as well!), look weak when he was beaten so easily by the Witch-King. I understand why it was done, but I think something along the lines of the Gandalf vs Sauron duel would have been much more effective, only in this instance with neither combatant clearly gaining the upper hand, and then the WK leaving when the horn of the Rohirrim sounds-it would have been much more faithful to the source material, where neither is shown to have the advantage in their brief meeting.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf
(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Jan 21 2014, 10:21pm)
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Kristin Thompson
Rohan
Jan 21 2014, 10:37pm
Post #10 of 17
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Gandalf is associated with hope, not despair. Yet suddenly, right after the enormous battle is won, he essentially gives up. It's left to Aragorn to suggest what Gandalf suggests in the book: that they take and army and attack the Black Gate in order to empty Mordor of troops and divert attention from Frodo.
Basically this is done to make Aragorn's role as the film's protagonist more prominent. That sort of thing is done fairly consistently. Gandalf is in general a far weaker and more irresolute character in the film than in the book. Except in scenes where the filmmakers need him to be powerful and determined, in which case he becomes so.
I think having him defeated and put in a cage by Sauron is the equivalent of the moment in ROTK when he's knocked off his horse. There's even the close parallel that in each scene his opponent dissolves his staff into dust.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 27 2014, 2:22pm
Post #11 of 17
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******************************************
May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jan 27 2014, 9:07pm
Post #13 of 17
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She turned me into a neeker-beeker!
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 28 2014, 1:51pm
Post #14 of 17
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'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 28 2014, 3:37pm
Post #15 of 17
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These were added in pickups to add more dramatic tension. (So much for the theory that the longer they worked on the script, the closer to Tolkien.) McKellen approved. He felt it made Gandalf more complex.
Personally I do feel it somewhat clashes with Gandalf's "Happy-happy-joy-joy, we're all going to die!" aka "far green country" speech to Pippin.
******************************************
May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 28 2014, 5:19pm
Post #16 of 17
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Wise in the Ways of Science. You would love some of my treatment ideas. 
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in April, 2014. We hope to see you there!
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The Grey Wanderer
Lorien
Feb 1 2014, 4:28pm
Post #17 of 17
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There you have the answer for the EE scene I most disliked.
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No way Gandalf would have gone down easily to the Witch King and a brief standoff would have been much truer to the source material. I would have much preferred that PJ had kept the confrontation to the Gate in the first place as my lest favorite element in the RotK is how weak the Gondorian army is - this being the force that has kept Sauron at bay for years [crushed easily at Osgiliath and readily pushed back through the highly defensible streets of Minas Tirith, ultimately leading to my least favorite CG sequence - the green river of ghosts swirling up the city].
And boy, did I wander off-topic. Rant over.
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