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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
No one in Laketown wanted to help Kili?

LordElrond
Rivendell


Jan 16 2014, 11:17pm

Post #1 of 20 (906 views)
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No one in Laketown wanted to help Kili? Can't Post

After Thorins speech everyone in Laketown loved the dwarves so why was Bard their only hope for helping Kili when he was clearly sick? Not even the local doctor was interested?


Avandel
Valinor

Jan 16 2014, 11:25pm

Post #2 of 20 (556 views)
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Kili was sick - and looked sick... [In reply to] Can't Post

another post a few pages back.....don't think ME has doctors - just "apothecaries", healers, stuff like that. Thorin described Laketown re a "forsaken town on a lake" seems like it's mostly simple people w. struggling to survive "times are harsh, food is scarce". Laketown folks were probably people who had seen illness spread before, and are fearful.

Kili looked so pale, these aren't even people but dwarves, so it's likely the more savvy, intelligent, and compassionate Bard would be the one to take them back in, and even have healing herbs around.


Bishop
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 1:43am

Post #3 of 20 (470 views)
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An oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

After the unbridled reception of the Dwarves and the Master's clear intention on making the Dwarves happy (there was obviously a reception and a party) I can't think of any logical reason no one would help the dwarves. At the very least, the Master would have a doctor on hand that he would order to help the Dwarves. Anything that would jeopardize his chance of getting a share of the wealth would be avoided.

I think the answer is much simpler; PJ and co. probably just didn't think about it.


marillaraina
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 2:44am

Post #4 of 20 (449 views)
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realistic [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
After the unbridled reception of the Dwarves and the Master's clear intention on making the Dwarves happy (there was obviously a reception and a party) I can't think of any logical reason no one would help the dwarves. At the very least, the Master would have a doctor on hand that he would order to help the Dwarves. Anything that would jeopardize his chance of getting a share of the wealth would be avoided.

I think the answer is much simpler; PJ and co. probably just didn't think about it.


I don't think so, Kili looked genuinely terribly sick(kudos to Aidan and the make up people), and ultimately the people of Laketown don't know these dwarves from Adam. They are actual strangers to them.

I actually think that was fairly realistic. I don't think the Master gives a damn. The Master really is not all that smart, for him he probably figures out of sight, out of mind - if Thorin didn't take them with him, he's not going to be all the worried about what happens to them now. After all if he was he HIMSELF would have asked the Master to see that Kili was cared for while they went to the mountain.

I'm not saying that is Thorin's actual feeling but it's quite easy to see why anyone in Laketown, including the Master would think that way. If Thorin actually cared about these people he'd have made arrangements for their care before he left.

(and to be honest, he should have, which IMO goes to support the reason why why Fili was upset - Thorin was telling Kili to stay behind, he didn't even ask Oin to stay with him, Oin had to make that decision himself, Thorin was basically leaving an ill Kili behind ALONE in a strange town with out so much as trying to at least arrange someplace for him to stay to try and recuperate--that shows Thorin's priorities are not quite what they should be)

They have no reason to think there isn't a GOOD reason Thorin left these dwarves behind. In which case why should they share their meager resources and possibly put their own health at risk?


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jan 17 2014, 2:45am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 4:03am

Post #5 of 20 (369 views)
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In a way Laketown has turned into a Ghetto? [In reply to] Can't Post

A Slum, & the people are pretty
Miserable under the Spell of the
Master?

Would they be hospitable
to a sick Dwarve?

Not likely, since they can
barely feed themselves
let alone a Sick,Strange Guest.

You try to get help in a Slum..

Also, Bomby thinks the Master
is already been packin' his Bags
if things go wrong in the Mountain.


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jan 17 2014, 4:06am)


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Jan 17 2014, 5:24am

Post #6 of 20 (365 views)
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And this goes the sickness of Thorin's character. He is not [In reply to] Can't Post

the "good" guy in the film. He is a driven, single minded and desperate dwarf. Yes, he is kingly in many ways, but he is also willing to do whatever it takes to salvage this quest. Later, his sickness is in full display with Bilbo.


Thaddeus
Bree

Jan 17 2014, 6:44am

Post #7 of 20 (333 views)
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Precisely! [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, Thorin obviously wouldn't have told them about the back door/Durin's day. They thus wouldn't know that Kili was being left behind because he would have encumbered them. This would cast a question mark on the contagious nature of Kili's sickness.


patrickk
Rohan

Jan 17 2014, 7:31am

Post #8 of 20 (325 views)
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Note dwarves... [In reply to] Can't Post

...are not Thranduils favorites and the Master has to keep in with his good boooks for trade purposes, so getting rid of the dwarves makes sense; having some behind with his spies looking out for them, does not encourage people to care fo them.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 7:57am

Post #9 of 20 (318 views)
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I had mentioned this in the several threads that have come up asking this question [In reply to] Can't Post

But as they have fallen off my front page (and I have it set to last 100 posts, since they're coming so quickly) I will go ahead and reply Smile

Here's my thoughts from the Laketowners' POV:

  1. These 4 dwarves were obviously not "worthy enough" to accompany their king to the mountain. The Master doesn't care two whits anymore than anyone else, if not less more so. All he (and the villagers) want is gold, and if these dwarves weren't valued enough by Thorin to go along to the Mountain, then why should they bother with mere peasants?
  2. Fili and Kili are not peasants obviously (they are Thorin's nephews). BUT...the townsfolk do not know this. Thorin never mentioned their relationship to him in Laketown. The only alluding to them being his kin and Fili being heir to the throne of Erebor was during a quiet conversation on an otherwise very noisy dock between him, Fili, and Kili. I believe Thorin did not state their relationship to him because he knows there's a price on his head. Someone is trying to kill him (he's probably figured out who by now), and if assassins are after you, you don't give them two more targets. He likely avoided mentioning their kinship to him for their safety. Unfortunately, here it backfired a bit.
  3. Kili is very sick, and he looks it. The townspeople appear to be a bit superstitious (dwarves bring us luck? Nope, sorry sweetie, the dwarves will wake up the dragon and torch your town Unsure) And in this time period the methods of contracting illness weren't really understood. They didn't have powerful enough microscopes or the medical knowledge we have today about how germs are spread from person to person. And they may not know it's poison- and therefore not contagious.
  4. Times are hard, and food is scarce. I would imagine medicine is even scarcer. And when times are hard and food is scarce, it can make people more susceptible to illness. People will not want to use up their precious stores of medicines to help a stranger, and a dwarf at that. Which brings me to...
  5. Dwarves were scorned by many people- look at the way the Master and Alfrid originally greet them: "Enemies of the state, eh?" "A ruthless bunch of mercenaries if ever I saw one, Sire." Dwarves were not highly thought of by the other races, though they didn't get along with the elves the most. I would not preclude the possibility of racism here, especially since the general attitude was that dwarves were homeless vagabonds with no manners and stubborn pride. You can most definitely see this viewpoint in how Bilbo reacts to the unruly bunch invading his home- they weren't exactly polite Wink Though some of them, like Balin and Kili, attempted to be so. They were thought of as rude and crude (belching, etc) by the other races after the fall of Erebor.
  6. The people of Laketown fear the Master (and with good reason, as they do not have any weapons to speak of to defend themselves against the guards). If the Master was unwilling to help them, they may not have helped them out of fear of getting into trouble with the law.



Those are most of my reasons- I cannot remember anything else that I had said. But that's the general reason why I don't think anyone wanted to help Kili.



Bard did because he was a good man and a compassionate one. He is smart, and he did not fear the Master, he wasn't superstitious, and while he may not know Fili and Kili's exact relation to Thorin, he would have to be blind to not see that they at least resemble him. He wanted nothing to do with the gold, so he had no reason monetarily to turn them away. And he is a defender of the people, and a lord in exile in his own right by inheritance. He is in the same spot as Thorin, essentially, as he's Girion's heir. Only he would rather give up Dale and see that his people are fed and clothed and taken care of than try to reclaim the lost kingdom. He is basically a King too, and understands the importance of putting one's people above one's own desires.
He may have felt the same that we do- that Thorin should not have left them behind. In that sense, he is helping those who are in need, just like he has been doing in Laketown for presumably quite a while. That's the decent person he is, and that's why he helped them despite his former dealings with them.



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 17 2014, 8:15am

Post #10 of 20 (310 views)
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The Master didn't really *want* to help them in the first place. [In reply to] Can't Post

From the book:

Quote

Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him, not did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position. Others were of different mind, however, and the matter was quickly settled without him. The news had spread from the doors of the hall like fire through all the town....
...
As for the Master he saw there was nothing else for it but to obey the general clamour, for the moment at any rate, and to pretend to believe that Thorin was what he said.
...
Thorin began to think of departure. While the enthusiasm still lasted in the town was the time to get help. It would not do to let everything cool down with delay. .... But the Master was not at all sorry to let them go.... "Let them go and bother Smaug, and see how he welcomes them!" he thought. "Certainly, O Thorin Thrain's son Thror's son!" was what he said.


Even in the book, the enthusiasm of the people of Laketown isn't going to last indefinitely, and the Men who helped row them to the upper reaches of the lake refuse to spend the night so near the Mountain.


Quote
"Not at any rate until the songs have come true!" said they. It was easier to believe in the Dragon and less easy to believe in Thorin in these wild parts.


Just extend the quick cooling-off of the Lakemen toward Thorin from the book and think of it coming as soon as Thorin and the rest of the company are out of sight. The prophecy probably seemed a lot less likely in the light of day - only a handful of dwarves to get rid of a dragon? A few dwarves left behind, one of them sick, and the rest unlikely to ever return from the Mountain. What if they never come back? Nobody wants to be saddled with them indefinitely, or be involved if Kili dies. What if they got blamed, or got sick themselves? If it doesn't involve immediate gold and riches, they're not interested. And these dwarves probably haven't got any money to pay for food, lodging, or doctor's fees.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Bombadil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 11:32am

Post #11 of 20 (280 views)
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About their Money?, they are Dead Broke... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Last of Gloin's gold was given
to Bard, just to get IN Laketown.

(Didn't the Goblins rob them of
anything they got in the Troll's Cave?)

The Missing party scene in the Master's
Chambers should shed more light on
This Political Intrigue...

The Master will probably find out
that are NO More reinforcements?

13 plus a little Hobbit against the
"Major Tragedy of our Time..." So
he starts figuring out his Escape plan,
since he probably realizes,
Laketown is Doomed.

But keeps THAT to himself & Alfrid.

He calculates they really ARE
on a Hopeless mission.

The faster they are out of there,
The more time he has to leave...

Bomby thinks he will be
"Fry-ed" in
Front of his Statue?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 2:07pm

Post #12 of 20 (274 views)
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That was sloppy on Peter's part [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson should have established that no help could be found for Kili before the remaining Dwarves showed up on Bard's doorstep. Without such a scene, the development makes no sense.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Kilidoescartwheels
Gondor

Jan 17 2014, 2:57pm

Post #13 of 20 (263 views)
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dwarves on the doorstep [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I'm sure that will be in the EE. In fact, another possibility is that the dwarves partied it up the night before (Bofur's hangover), which might have put a few people off. Maybe they didn't want their homes getting trashed, either, as so many have pointed out its a poor town and people don't really have much to spare. I doubt that Bard, the naysayer with 3 kids, was at the party at all, so he might not be as put out as the rest of the town. Wonder if Bofur does another table dance?Tongue


Kilidoescartwheels
Gondor

Jan 17 2014, 2:58pm

Post #14 of 20 (243 views)
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Fry-ed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bomby thinks he will be
"Fry-ed" in
Front of his Statue?


LOL, good one!


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jan 17 2014, 3:55pm

Post #15 of 20 (244 views)
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Or else [In reply to] Can't Post

It would have interfered with their planned invented storyline, highlighting Orc fights/Elves.


In Reply To
I think the answer is much simpler; PJ and co. probably just didn't think about it.



MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 17 2014, 7:32pm

Post #16 of 20 (216 views)
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Yeah no reason other than it's a simple mistake... [In reply to] Can't Post

Same reason the dwarves forget they can escape out the secret entrance they entered after they confront Smaug.

When writing new material in, it feels like the lines were made to be convenient rather than thought through.


In Reply To
Jackson should have established that no help could be found for Kili before the remaining Dwarves showed up on Bard's doorstep. Without such a scene, the development makes no sense.



Avandel
Valinor

Jan 17 2014, 9:06pm

Post #17 of 20 (203 views)
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disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

"If Thorin actually cared about these people he'd have made arrangements for their care before he left.
(and to be honest, he should have, which IMO goes to support the reason why why Fili was upset - Thorin was telling Kili to stay behind, he didn't even ask Oin to stay with him, Oin had to make that decision himself, Thorin was basically leaving an ill Kili behind ALONE in a strange town with out so much as trying to at least arrange someplace for him to stay to try and recuperate--that shows Thorin's priorities are not quite what they should be)
They have no reason to think there isn't a GOOD reason Thorin left these dwarves behind. In which case why should they share their meager resources and possibly put their own health at risk?"

Er, some of these posts seem determined to make Thorin into a *bleep* which I will never get (at least from the film Thorin and I liked the book Thorin too). Aside from the weight of needing to reclaim a kingdom and a heritage, don't see anything wrong with wanting your rightful kingship back - but anyway, Thorin & co. are DWARVES. It seems to me re the above statement would reflect the behavior of people, POSSIBLY, depending I guess on how tough you are.

Thorin risked his own life to drag Bilbo back up a cliff, a hobbit he didn't want. He's the one standing on the rock in the grasslands, making sure everyone else is safe before jumping himself. He's the one who steps forward when Ori is going to be tortured, and is defending from behind while Gandalf is dealing w. the goblin king. Thorin takes care of his guys, even at risk to himself. Even at the end in Erebor re them not making it Thorin says "some of us might" e.g. he's willing to die - including heaving himself into a pit to draw Smaug. And he was upset when Kili was shot. So for me it strains credulity that Thorin would KNOWINGLY do NOTHING for a very ill nephew that he cares for, obviously re "are you alright?" when they were stealing weapons.

But Thorin doesn't know, none of them do, that Kili's wound is a mortal shot. From a dwarf perspective, Kili has been downplaying the wound (probably all dwarves make light of injuries). Most of them have probably been wounded at one point or another and just keep going, like little tanks (including Thorin re Azog). Kili is up and walking up to that point, even if he looks sick, and Thorin is having to make decisions under serious time pressure ("we can risk no more delays"). "Join us when you're healed" sounded like Thorin being patient with this typically stubborn, never-quit dwarf which Thorin does understand, but he doesn't know how bad Kili is. (And Kili only looks REALLY bad at Bard's door.)

And if Thorin doesn't know, why would he bother to "make arrangements"? Kili and Fili may be young dwarves, but adults, and evidently served as scouts and guards for the company - e.g. at the leading edge of danger. So, knowing Bofur is still in town somewhere, and now Oin has decided to stay with Kili, why would he not think they are all just going to kick back at the Master's or at a pub or wherever until Kili's wound heals up? Even saying that Kili "would slow them" down indicates that Thorin thinks it's just a wound, but not one that would totally incapacitate Kili. Not that Kili wouldn't be mobile at all.

Just sayin' - Thorin is indisputably driven, for sure, and later at Erebor will be the first hint of dragon madness. But to me it's obvious he cares for his guys, and they care about him (re the EE version when Oin/Bofur/Dwalin are basically keeping Thorin from stepping forward for a time, etc.) And while I think Kili and Fili are adorable, they ARE dwarves.
Tough little tank-like ADULT dwarves. If anything, I found Fili's behavior a bit troublesome, because Thorin is right - this quest is also about an entire people being displaced and reclaiming that land, and that kingdom. Dwarves and a kingdom that Fili will be ruler of. Not saying that Fili should have left Kili, just that his response in the movie wasn't one of a "person"/dwarf looking at a larger picture e.g., "don't be a fool, you belong with the company." And that's another statement that indicates to me that Thorin thinks Kili's wound isn't all that bad.


Ismene
The Shire


Jan 22 2014, 3:56am

Post #18 of 20 (77 views)
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i think PJ & Co trusted [In reply to] Can't Post

the audience to figure it out from

context - Lake Town is a shadow of itself. Misery ridden by it's own hand. People that ground down by poverty very seldom share or risk what little they have.

&

fairly recent history - AIDS when it first became widely known - very few were willing to see the person & take the risks. You wouldn't believe some of the bs that went down just a few decades back that didn't even have the excuse of poverty & scarce resources.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 22 2014, 3:07pm

Post #19 of 20 (67 views)
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The '80s were my 20s [In reply to] Can't Post

I was a witness to the panic over the HIV/AIDS epidemic and I've seen any number of fads and panics spawned by junk science; I do know how stupid and venal people can be. I still think that this is an instance in the film where Jackson dropped the ball (combined with the issue of the missing day between the company's arrival in Lake-town and its departure). Any indifference over Kili's worsening condition should have been demonstrated at least once.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


marillaraina
Rohan


Jan 22 2014, 6:47pm

Post #20 of 20 (68 views)
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subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I was a witness to the panic over the HIV/AIDS epidemic and I've seen any number of fads and panics spawned by junk science; I do know how stupid and venal people can be. I still think that this is an instance in the film where Jackson dropped the ball (combined with the issue of the missing day between the company's arrival in Lake-town and its departure). Any indifference over Kili's worsening condition should have been demonstrated at least once.


I didn't really have any problem figuring out why no one would help them, and it felt realistic to me, but there may well be a scene or two in the EE which would help in this regard.

 
 

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