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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Sauron with Orcs vs. White Council: How Would You Go About It?
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HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jan 5 2014, 1:44am

Post #26 of 36 (159 views)
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Of course Saruman and Elrond will be there [In reply to] Can't Post

And no one is saying Galadriel will battle Sauron "mano and mano", since that would be outstandingly stupid. Why didn't she do that in LOTR if she can do it in The Hobbit?

But Saruman being the guy that ultimately saves the day through his "devices" is extremely unlikely to happen in the films, I'd say. He had his cameo in AUJ in which he acted like a jerk the whole time and hasn't been mentioned since. They're not going to turn him into some hero in TABA, but I'll be the first one to admit I was wrong if that comes to pass.

Also, there's the not-so-veiled suggestion by Philippa Boyens at Comic-Con that people would be flabbergasted by Galadriel in Dol Guldur.... this came immediately after her stance that she was the most powerful being in Middle-earth, which might be false in the books but not necessarily so in the screenwriter's world.... so that, to me, implies a lot more than just physically dragging Gandalf out of the fortress, since there's nothing really awe-inspiring about that (though it will be touching, no doubt).


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jan 5 2014, 1:55am

Post #27 of 36 (140 views)
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Personally... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I think having Saruman be the hero of Dol Guldur would give much more weight to his defection in LotR.

But I agree it is unlikely that will happen that way. Like you said, they seem to be playing Galadriel up over the rest of the Council. And while I don't doubt it will be a mostly group effort, I have a feeling it will be mostly about Gandalf and Galadriel. Not at all the way I would do it, but then again I wouldn't have done a lot of things PJ has done.


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jan 5 2014, 2:08am

Post #28 of 36 (135 views)
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Honestly... [In reply to] Can't Post

If they had given us a "noble Saruman" in AUJ, I could see him as the savior figure in TABA. But they made him seem faintly villainous from the very start, which I think was rather lazy and a mistake.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jan 5 2014, 2:48am

Post #29 of 36 (127 views)
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Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but since his arrogant behavior in AUJ was very much in keeping with his arrogant behavior at Council meetings in the lore, I didn't mind it at all. And I don't see why it has to preclude him from being a hero in Dol Guldur. He was a villain by this time in the books (although it wasn't yet known), yet he still routed Sauron.

But then again, I'm thinking from my own Tolkien book-fan point-of-view, not from the casual movie-goer point-of-view. I'd guess most of the audience wants to see Galadriel and Gandalf take the lead against Sauron. It's kind of similar to my belief that Dain should be the one to kill Azog, even though I'm almost positive most of the general audience would like to see Thorin kill him.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 5 2014, 6:47am

Post #30 of 36 (123 views)
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Ideally, Saruman shows up last and turns the tide. [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel, perhaps with Radagast, has gone without the aid of The Full Council and without the consent of Saruman. Gandalf and Galadriel together holding off Sauron, as Frodo and Sam combined wills whilst holding the phial to free themselves from Cirith Ungol (tower not pass) and break the will of the watchers. But Sauron remains too strong, and their combined light is seen compressing when a mighty voice is heard, as in Fellowship on the winds of the storm, and Saruman enters the ruin, Elves in his train, arms outstretched, putting forth his power at last.

In Reply To
...I think having Saruman be the hero of Dol Guldur would give much more weight to his defection in LotR.

But I agree it is unlikely that will happen that way. Like you said, they seem to be playing Galadriel up over the rest of the Council. And while I don't doubt it will be a mostly group effort, I have a feeling it will be mostly about Gandalf and Galadriel. Not at all the way I would do it, but then again I wouldn't have done a lot of things PJ has done.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elskidor
Rohan


Jan 5 2014, 7:02am

Post #31 of 36 (117 views)
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Agreed completely [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...I think having Saruman be the hero of Dol Guldur would give much more weight to his defection in LotR.


It is to bad he came across as a skeptical prick in AUJ, and leaning toward the side of villains this early.

Tolkien Elimination Game (Round 3: Villains)


http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=697710;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell


Jan 5 2014, 12:10pm

Post #32 of 36 (86 views)
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Ok, so [In reply to] Can't Post

(This initial idea was suggested by someone on this board, but I think it's cool.) So, the wise are walking across the bridge towards the fortress when an ethereal elf comes out and greets them. At first they are confused before it is Galadriel who realises it is Sauron in his Annatar form. He then changes to the form we know and love - the armour from FOTR, however due to his weakness it is not fully physical.

The battle then commences with Elrond, Galadriel and Saruman holding off Sauron, while Radagast frees Gandalf. The three Istari then begin to face off against Sauron, while Elrond is battling Nazul/Trolls/orcs and Galadriel begins to bring down the walls - imagine if she starts to sing and through the elvish spells the walls crumble, what an amazing cue to Luthien that would be! Radagast is slain by Sauron (I know, controversial) before Elrond and Galadriel join together with Saruman/Gandalf and (perhaps, by something to do with the three rings) Sauron is driven out of Dol Guldur.

Smile


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 5 2014, 6:00pm

Post #33 of 36 (70 views)
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This sounds wonderful AO [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Galadriel, perhaps with Radagast, has gone without the aid of The Full Council and without the consent of Saruman. Gandalf and Galadriel together holding off Sauron, as Frodo and Sam combined wills whilst holding the phial to free themselves from Cirith Ungol (tower not pass) and break the will of the watchers. But Sauron remains too strong, and their combined light is seen compressing when a mighty voice is heard, as in Fellowship on the winds of the storm, and Saruman enters the ruin, Elves in his train, arms outstretched, putting forth his power at last.

Saruman is still The White ... I would love to see this happen. Angelic

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





QueenCirce
The Shire

Jan 6 2014, 4:41am

Post #34 of 36 (54 views)
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How I am "hoping" it plays out.... [In reply to] Can't Post

What I would like to see…..

1. Enemies: Spiders, wargs orcs and trolls etc to start with.. dispatched by Elrond, Thranduil and the elves…with some help from the council…..then the 9 come forward...and the council send them packing…..followed by Sauron himself...I don’t know what form sauron should take…. But for his escape I would love to see him take the shadowy shape of a smoke and darkness filled vampire bat and glide away…..screaming….
2. Physical fighting: I see Elrond and perhaps Thranduil as the "fighters" but more graceful and ethereal and less "acrobatic" and showy as Tauriel and Legolas... almost like they barely need to exert themselves...but quick graceful cuts…and a fey light around their swords….
3. Galadriel: I see her throwing down the walls and laying bare the pits as described in the books… surrounded by light, with the phial of Galadriel in one hand and an elven sword of light in the other…and her costume a mix of her gown and fitted armour….similar to her freak out in FOTR but more eleven in design.... I see orcs screaming and cowering in her presence…as her light blinds them and she comes forth…. I wouldn’t mind seeing her slay an orc or troll of two with the grace of an elven queen….on a side note… I really love Galadriel but I don’t want to see her being “the most powerful being” in middle earth aside from Sauron…. The Istari ( I have always believed) are more powerful, followed by Galadriel and Tom and then elrond, cirdan etc etc
4. Gandalf: once he is freed I want see him do more than surround himself in light…. He is my favourite wizard… I want to see more Gandalf the grey magic I want to see the istari really let loose and “put forth their power” I want to see flashes of light, coloured fire(works) more fire and brimstone etc etc maybe some more lightning….
5. Radagast: Despite my initial misgivings when I first watched AUJ, I really came to like PJ’s version of radagast…. I love how despite all the comical bits there is a few moments of seriousness where underneath his kookiness you see his wisdom and veiled power… I want radagast to start showing some of his power… I want him to summon flocks of birds to attack…. Cause Vines to grow and break stones apart…and show some of his true power and why he shouldn’t be underestimated……
6. Saruman: I would also like Saruman to show his power at this stage he is the ‘White ‘ and the most powerful of the Istari….. he should show some major power… and remind everyone why he is the head of the council!
7.

What I think we will see…..

Radagast ignores his orders… and goes in to save Gandalf…. And probably give’s Gandalf his staff….as the two wizards are fighting their way out and are nearly overwhelmed, Galadriel arrives with the rest of the white council and then proceed to kick tail….

The 3 Istari including Galadriel, will fight Sauron and the nine and drive them out… how this happens I am not sure…. But at some point Galadriel will use her light to break the rest of the enchantment surrounding Dol Guldor and break open the pits… and this will either happen at the start or middle of the TABA or as edited scenes alongside the BOFA.

I have 2 theories about ol’ radagast….
*SPOILERS*

1. Maybe Saruman will find the palantir with Radgast and covet its power, Radgast will beg him to turn it over and saruman will either turn on him or murder him and lie to the council….. and bring his staff back to the others….OR
2. Radagst will be the ultimate sacrifice that drives sauron away… thus showing how noble and powerful he was .... I believe the 2nd is more possible considering the staff changes…. And the fact they have been portraying Radagast as a fool… yet in the heat of the battle his true nature will be revealed making his sacrifice even more poignant ….


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jan 6 2014, 7:24pm

Post #35 of 36 (34 views)
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I like it, except one small detail [In reply to] Can't Post

I would prefer Saruman using his staff, rather than "arms outstretched". Maybe you meant this but I wasn't sure.

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Mithfânion
Rivendell

Jan 10 2014, 2:04pm

Post #36 of 36 (26 views)
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Thranduil will not be there [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we need to scale back what the White Council vs Dol Guldur face off will look like.
I think it will primarily be a magical duel. This makes sense in every aspect. There will not be many armies there, or hundreds of soldiers.
At best, there will be some smaller forces from Rivendell or Lothlorien. That'll be it, guaranteed.
This is not about ground troups, and remember that all that stuff is already in the BoFA. They will not have that happen here as well.
Sauron does not have a body as yet. He can only be fought with magical power.
Moreso, his armies will be gone, a few will remain at best. His help troups there will certainly be the Nazgul, as well as spiders and bats.
Opposing him will be Galadriel, Saruman, Radagast for certain, and possibly Gandalf and Elrond. On Elrond, we are not sure.
He did not go back for pik-ups in 2013, but that was not Dol Guldur material as far as we know. Gandalf's role is unclear now, will he be freed before the others come, and if yes, will he still have a role in the battle? If he is not freed before, will he not have a role at all and just be rescued by the White Council? As disappointing as that sounds, it does actually seem as if this is what it is leading up to.
At some point, the powers of the White Council will get the upper hand, and Sauron and the Nine will disperse. I do not expect there to be much military action, only a bit. The lion share of the confrontation will be magical.

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