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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Did Sauron desire to see Smaug become the Dragon King of the North?

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 22 2013, 11:33pm

Post #1 of 20 (760 views)
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Did Sauron desire to see Smaug become the Dragon King of the North? Can't Post

In considering the similarities in the powers of Dragon Eyes, Glaurung to Smaug, the other day, it also returned to my attention that Glaurung came to reign, literally, as a Dragon king over the desolation of ruined Nargothrond and its lands. Orcs came into that realm, though never into his lair, and he was their overlord. Might Smaug not have held a similar rule?

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 1:42am

Post #2 of 20 (405 views)
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its possible.. [In reply to] Can't Post

perhaps sauron wanted to be "king" of the realms around mordor, gondor ect..and was going to leave the north, erebor ect.. in the hands of smaug. -In the same way the mouth of sauron was going to be given the shire if sauron had won.

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Dec 23 2013, 1:42am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 23 2013, 2:23am

Post #3 of 20 (410 views)
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An underking, to be certain, but a king all the same. I think, ultimately, both the Dragon and the Balrog [In reply to] Can't Post

had enough in common with Sauron that he would have been comfortable with them being overlords in distat reacjes. They had the same foes, especially in the case of the Balrog, and some of the same interests. Neither Demon nor Dragon would be inclined to try to expand their power to the point of ousting Sauron, if their histories are an indicator, but both would be able to challange even the greatest of his foes in ways that his mightiest servants would not and could not, and they would be ideal overlords whom no minion would dare misbehave under the watch of.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


moreorless
Rohan

Dec 23 2013, 3:40am

Post #4 of 20 (371 views)
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I'm interesting to see where this might lead in TABA... [In reply to] Can't Post

We've seen a number of pretty clear hints towards this kind of situation, perhaps not that Smaug would be a "leader" but that he would on some level serve Sauron. I'd argue that Smaug's intelligence and arrogance make it clear that such service wouldn't be as a mere minion.

It does seem unlike Jackson to introduce these kinds of themes and then not follow up on them, especially in the TE's of his films. That leads me to wonder whether Smaug's story might actually be altered from the book during TABA, perhaps he attacks laketown but then isn't killed by Bard until sometime latter in the story? maybe during the BOT5A?

Actually in terms of Bard's own story I don't see this being too difficult to achieve, even without killing Smaug I think its easy to see how the master can be disgraced/killed with Bard ending up taking on a leadership role simply by how he deals with the disaster(Bard looks to help people to safty, the master looks to protect his personal wealth at the cost of others lives).

The real problem with getting such a change to work for me would be how Smaug and Sauron(or his minions) interact, how would they convince him not to return to Erebor and finish off the Dwarves? how would the interaction be credible? maybe one of the Nazgul? some kind of "vision" sent by Sauron himself similar to the way he communicated with Azog?


(This post was edited by moreorless on Dec 23 2013, 3:41am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 4:23am

Post #5 of 20 (350 views)
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but if smaug perishes by the arrow.. [In reply to] Can't Post

than that would end the alliance between the two.

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


Fili
Lorien


Dec 23 2013, 4:24am

Post #6 of 20 (349 views)
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In A Way... [In reply to] Can't Post

He kind of already was. All the North pretty much dwelt under his shadow. The men of Laketown eeked out their meager existence, the dwarves had been scattered, the wood elves had walled themselves off...

Pretty much all Sauron would need to do is coordinate an attack on Thranduil with Smaug and his orcs. Once the elves were defeated and buggered off, the orcs could have a little coronation for Smaug and make it official I suppose. Laugh

“So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.”


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 5:07am

Post #7 of 20 (354 views)
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Dragons and Balrogs in politics [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, we folks in the RR discussed the possibility of the Balrog, certain dragons, and Sauron's political aspirations.

The Balrog, was subservient to Melkor, and did not seem to waver. We wondered if Sauron could have controlled him. I think not, or he would have. Just an opinion.

Sauron seemed just as committed to his boss. In fact, Sauron was described by Tolkien as a reformer. Perhaps he saw his boss as a revolutionary leader? Maybe he followed with a fanatical zeal?

Dragons, OTOH, seem a little more nebulous in their loyalty. Glarung kicked off his master's wishes by revealing himself too soon. He also seemed to no longer take orders once he had his own hideaway in Nagothrond. Was it because they were politically ambitious, or that they love gold too much? Was it a choice, or a character flaw working against Melkor?

So could Sauron, lesser than Melkor, who did not seem interested/able? to compel Glarung to obey, use Smaug? Maybe, but he would not have him on a leash like a tame pet. An ally perhaps? Well if Saruman is any indication, we know how that partnership would end.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 23 2013, 5:58am

Post #8 of 20 (330 views)
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I don't think control would be necessary. Merely shared interests, and the promise of fulfillment. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron could offer the Balrog cover and a chance for vengeance, on the Elves who had played such a central role in the fall of their master and against whom their greatest enmity was directed. The Balrog did not have to prove bidable... only amenable. Which in many ways he already had. His allowance of the infiltration by the orcs was a statement enough. Azog could never have strutted about in Moria had Durin's Bane, who emptied the entire dwarf nation through force, sorcerous and violent, and then drove a third of the Elves from Lothlorien through his power to induce fear alone, decided that he did not want the orc there.

As Gandalf said regarding Smaug, the one Evil will seek to aid the other. That two of the last evil Maiar active upon Middle-Earth would have some shared purpose, in the destruction of the free peoples at the least, seems all but certain.

Alliance would be the real nature of things. An alliance of foes to great for even Elves to lightly turn aside, dragon and Demon of Might.

In Reply To
Well, we folks in the RR discussed the possibility of the Balrog, certain dragons, and Sauron's political aspirations.

The Balrog, was subservient to Melkor, and did not seem to waver. We wondered if Sauron could have controlled him. I think not, or he would have. Just an opinion.

Sauron seemed just as committed to his boss. In fact, Sauron was described by Tolkien as a reformer. Perhaps he saw his boss as a revolutionary leader? Maybe he followed with a fanatical zeal?

Dragons, OTOH, seem a little more nebulous in their loyalty. Glarung kicked off his master's wishes by revealing himself too soon. He also seemed to no longer take orders once he had his own hideaway in Nagothrond. Was it because they were politically ambitious, or that they love gold too much? Was it a choice, or a character flaw working against Melkor?

So could Sauron, lesser than Melkor, who did not seem interested/able? to compel Glarung to obey, use Smaug? Maybe, but he would not have him on a leash like a tame pet. An ally perhaps? Well if Saruman is any indication, we know how that partnership would end.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


moreorless
Rohan

Dec 23 2013, 8:04am

Post #9 of 20 (308 views)
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Thats my point really... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
than that would end the alliance between the two.


If they wanted to play up this alliance then perhaps they'll look to delay Smaug's death and have him killed during the BOT5A instead?

To me delaying Smaug's death was always the most obviously tempting change in the Hobbit for Jackson. Having your main villain killed off well before the end of the story doesn't really make for classic film making.

DOS left me with this feeling as well, if Smaug is on his way to laketown are we going to have him killed right at the start of the film? that for me doesn't make for good cinema.


Arandir
Gondor


Dec 23 2013, 9:00am

Post #10 of 20 (301 views)
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But the whole point of the BOFA [In reply to] Can't Post

is due to the dragon's death and the quest to reclaim the unguarded treasure.

If this change happens, so will the entire scope and motive of the battle/

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Dec 23 2013, 9:17am

Post #11 of 20 (294 views)
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I'm not sure that I see [In reply to] Can't Post

Any kind of alliance between Smaug and Sauron actually working. Sauron wants total domination over Middle-Earth and Smaug is far too proud and independent a Dragon to take orders from anyone.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 3:36pm

Post #12 of 20 (253 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

He'd have to play them against each other, or to coinciding ends. He would never consider it a permanent arrangement. IIRC the Professor described Sauron as a politician, so I could see him using them as long as it suits him.

They seem to be using this idea in the films with Azog and Bolg, and their deaths, if occurring, would free Sauron from any obligation

I just don't think that he'd want to set Smaug, a dubious ally at best, into a strong position.

I think that I often underestimate evil. I think of the rabble of orcs, but the leaders, the real leaders, Melkor, Saruman, and Sauron, were very organized. The orcs were the dumb, mindless sort of evil that can only be self destructive, but the real leaders, the ones with real ambition, were the crime bosses of ME. They were not going to work themselves out as the orcs might do if left unattended. They needed to be dealt with.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 8:45pm

Post #13 of 20 (207 views)
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But that's what sparks the BOT5A [In reply to] Can't Post

(Smaug's death)

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 23 2013, 10:47pm

Post #14 of 20 (201 views)
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And Sauron was always thus, much more so, generally, than even Morgoth, whose malice [In reply to] Can't Post

was at times so great that it over-reached and did harm to his motives.

Sauron and The Balrog had a longstanding hatred for the Elves. Smaug enjoyed wrecking things to ruin. The Balrogs, through all their history, showed themselves to be more interested in and proficient at being war captains, taskmasters, tormentors and overseers, than far reaching international overlords. Dominating a single realm or region and ordering it to their general will through fear and punishment, and also leading the rabble into battle and keeping them on task, while also striking fear into the enemy, those were the main modus operandi of the Balrogs. Destroying and hoarding for the dragons.

I don't think Sauron would have any real fear or concern that either of these other great evils would seek to challenge him for supremacy of all Middle-Earth, so long as they had comfortable mastery of the regions in which they themselves dwelt, and perhaps over some of the places and peoples they had proven instrumental in conquering. And that he could certainly afford to give, as their limited territories of governance would hardly be dominated by any code of ethics or conduct meant to foster resistance to his greater soveriegnity.

In Reply To
He'd have to play them against each other, or to coinciding ends. He would never consider it a permanent arrangement. IIRC the Professor described Sauron as a politician, so I could see him using them as long as it suits him.

They seem to be using this idea in the films with Azog and Bolg, and their deaths, if occurring, would free Sauron from any obligation

I just don't think that he'd want to set Smaug, a dubious ally at best, into a strong position.

I think that I often underestimate evil. I think of the rabble of orcs, but the leaders, the real leaders, Melkor, Saruman, and Sauron, were very organized. The orcs were the dumb, mindless sort of evil that can only be self destructive, but the real leaders, the ones with real ambition, were the crime bosses of ME. They were not going to work themselves out as the orcs might do if left unattended. They needed to be dealt with.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 24 2013, 6:28am

Post #15 of 20 (191 views)
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Yes, the business plan does depend on the partners [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman was as ambitious as Sauron, thus dangerous, and one not to be trusted.


Melkor would have been self defeating, and was I think. He seemed totally Nihilistic at times. He wanted to rule, at any cost, even if was only ashes. Not a smart way to go.

Good points about the Balrog! He seemed to be too small minded to really become a world dominating power. He had the brawn and looks, not the brain or ambition. He seems to really be useful to organize small groups and lead the rank and file.

Dragons seem to want gold and destruction. Smaug seemed pretty cozy on his mound of gold. He seems to act like a an addict in some ways. He does things selfishly, and to further his own agenda and habit. More gold, food, comfort, and my wants. They don't seem to want to rule either, just consume. A bit like Ungoliant.

Sauron could have used these, given time, but I am sure that they would be pretty difficult to rope in, or hold in check. The Balrog would have to be daunted and made to see the larger picture. His thinking would have to be done for him, I think! The dragon might come willingly, but he would be a loose cannon, and a dangerous force in your rear. If he got upset, he could make a huge mess. He would also have to be humored and cozened, and convinced to do what you say, by making him think it was in his interest. He might be more work than its worth.

One it all settled down, though, I think that a stable arrangement could be found. Balrog could he a regional commandant, and Smaug could be let loose wherever he wants to pillage and get lazy and fat.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Cillendor
Lorien

Dec 24 2013, 8:22am

Post #16 of 20 (154 views)
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Considering in Tolkien's original conception of The Hobbit, [In reply to] Can't Post

the Woodland Realm was Nargothrond, the Elvenking was Thingol, and the white gems were the Nauglamír, I can see this direction being taken. I don't know if Smaug was meant to be the same as Glaurung or not, but for the film it works.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 24 2013, 8:26am

Post #17 of 20 (157 views)
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About the Balrog, I think it more a matter of ambitions than brains. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think there was anything wrong with their thinking capacity, and it is one of the complaints I have that the films focused so much on the animalistic force and all but forgot about the sorcerous powers of the Demons of Might. Ungoliante took the form of a spider who was interested in doing nothing other than sucking up life and light.... but she had the foresight to distrust Melkor, and to keep all eyes on him, to anticipate that he would try to shake her loose once his goal was achieved, and to hold him to the tecnicalities of his agreement.

So I don't think the Balrogs, for all the slighting, lacked the wherewithal... just the drive for that level of dominion and responsibility. lol

I don't think an ancient evil like that, one present at and involved in the making of the world, would need anything spelled out for him like a two year old.

As long as Smaug had his gold, he would be mostly content, and why would Sauron try to rob him after all???

In Reply To
Saruman was as ambitious as Sauron, thus dangerous, and one not to be trusted.

Melkor would have been self defeating, and was I think. He seemed totally Nihilistic at times. He wanted to rule, at any cost, even if was only ashes. Not a smart way to go.

Good points about the Balrog! He seemed to be too small minded to really become a world dominating power. He had the brawn and looks, not the brain or ambition. He seems to really be useful to organize small groups and lead the rank and file.

Dragons seem to want gold and destruction. Smaug seemed pretty cozy on his mound of gold. He seems to act like a an addict in some ways. He does things selfishly, and to further his own agenda and habit. More gold, food, comfort, and my wants. They don't seem to want to rule either, just consume. A bit like Ungoliant.

Sauron could have used these, given time, but I am sure that they would be pretty difficult to rope in, or hold in check. The Balrog would have to be daunted and made to see the larger picture. His thinking would have to be done for him, I think! The dragon might come willingly, but he would be a loose cannon, and a dangerous force in your rear. If he got upset, he could make a huge mess. He would also have to be humored and cozened, and convinced to do what you say, by making him think it was in his interest. He might be more work than its worth.

One it all settled down, though, I think that a stable arrangement could be found. Balrog could he a regional commandant, and Smaug could be let loose wherever he wants to pillage and get lazy and fat.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Dec 24 2013, 8:30am)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 24 2013, 4:06pm

Post #18 of 20 (132 views)
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Not stupid, just not Evil Overlord material [In reply to] Can't Post

The Balrog was not a mindless beast, just not able to see the big picture, and himself at the top of the pyramid.. Looking back at my phrasing, it does look like I was comparing the Balrog to an infant, sorry. He just lacked the upward drive, more ambition that brains.

The dragons would be hard to convince to do what you want. It might be easy form you to tell them to sack a kingdom full of gold, but try to get them tk charge 100 dragon slaying knights in full armor, and he might have second thoughts, or refuse. Anything to help you, would have to help the dragon, limiting his usefulness and only increases then danger and risk.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Felagund
Lorien


Dec 27 2013, 10:41am

Post #19 of 20 (112 views)
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Sauron, Lord of the Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree with this. Would add that Sauron was using grand titles in the Second Age such as 'Lord of the Earth' and 'King of Men'. Plenty of room for other rulers with this model, as long as they didn't challenge Sauron as overlord. Sauron was a megalomaniac but not the fundamentalist Morgoth was - the latter wanted control of all creation itself.

Also, your namesake MoS, was promised Isengard. Not sure about the Shire.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2013, 7:09pm

Post #20 of 20 (105 views)
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oh thats right, your correct, it was isengard [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent

 
 

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