|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
SilentLion
Rivendell
Jan 13 2008, 9:18pm
Post #1 of 8
(474 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A question about the Downfall of Numenor
|
Can't Post
|
|
When Ar Pharazon and his army invad Valinor, they are imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Last Battle and Final Judgement. Whose side will they fight on in the Last Battle? Will they be aligned with Morgoth who they worshiped, or will they be like the Army of the Dead and redeem themselves by fighting on the side of good?
|
|
|
vtboyarc
Lorien
Jan 14 2008, 4:47am
Post #2 of 8
(394 views)
Shortcut
|
I would say that they won't fight in the Last Battle, however I think they will still be subject to the judgment.
Theres some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and its worth fighting for.
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Jan 14 2008, 12:06pm
Post #3 of 8
(341 views)
Shortcut
|
But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.
I don't know enough about how Christopher Tolkien decided what would go in and what would come out of the Sil, and haven't read most of HOME or other unfinished stuff by Tolkien to say absolutely that I understand his vision of "The Last Battle" and "The Day of Doom", etc.
But I think it may be an unintentional linking of the words "mortal warriors" and "Last Battle" that make us think that they will be participating in something called "The Last Battle".
I get the impression that "it is said they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten" is just poetic language for "they died under all that rock". And if so, they are dead and will "participate" in the "Last Battle" only in the same sense that any other dead human will or will not participate in it.
They will CERTAINLY "participate" in the Day of Doom, which I take to be Tolkien's portrayal of Eru's final judgement on the world as it is and the beginning of the new world as it will be, amen.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jan 14 2008, 4:17pm
Post #4 of 8
(321 views)
Shortcut
|
I don't think we have an answer to that question. Unlike a.s., I do think their spirits are imprisoned there, not just their bodies. I think your analogy to the Army of the Dead is apt. According to some accounts, Feanor does redeem himself in the Last Battle, so perhaps it is possible for Ar Pharazon to do so as well. On the other hand, since I don't recall any stories about Ar Pharazon redeeming himself, it also seems possible that he will fight with Morgoth. In other words, take your pick!
|
|
|
SilentLion
Rivendell
Jan 14 2008, 10:24pm
Post #5 of 8
(307 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You may be right, but the term Caves of the Forgotten sounded like it had some significance
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It may be that they've made their choice and they don't have any further role to play in history, but a cave seems like a place where they would be preserved intact for some future event. Maybe they should have called it the "Caves of the Squished." *s*
|
|
|
SilentLion
Rivendell
Jan 14 2008, 10:35pm
Post #6 of 8
(304 views)
Shortcut
|
The Caves of the Forgotten had the same ring to me as the Paths of Dead; however, one key difference is that the Army of the Dead's sin was was one of omission (not being willing to fight on behalf of Isildur in spite of their oath) while the Numenoreans sin was one of commission (making war on the Valar). Ar-Pharazon seems considerably less redeemable than Feanor, though some of his army might have made other choices given a few ages of the world to think about it.
One possible UUT:
Maybe Sauron half-believed his lies that Morgoth would come to the aid the Numenoreans, so that one possibility in Sauron's mind was that the assault on Valinor would divert the attention of the Valar, allowing Morgoth to return and triggering the Last Battle (many ages too soon).
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Jan 15 2008, 12:10am
Post #7 of 8
(296 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, to answer both you and Curious, I really can't say with any thorough understanding about what happens, because, as I say, I haven't read enough of the "other" Tolkien stuff to know where he was going with this.
I was only really giving my personal impression! It could be there's a better answer than mine based on something Tolkien wrote about or indicated elsewhere. I just don't know.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
|
|
|
SmeagoloftheStoors
Lorien
Feb 9 2008, 7:31pm
Post #8 of 8
(284 views)
Shortcut
|
I consider the whole thing much like the Christian Apocolyps. A lot is said to give us the idea that it won't be pleasant, but not enough to let us know what color of shirt the President of the US will be wearing. It's open to interpretation. I think they will be part of the power of Morgoth. Such is my right.
Eglario Valar!
|
|
|
|
|
