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TORn gets the low-down on how Richard Armitage's inner Tolkien purist ticks
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entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 22 2013, 1:38pm

Post #26 of 39 (152 views)
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That was one of the most fun weekends I've had [In reply to] Can't Post

Can't believe it's been 10 years, but I loved every moment. I have pictures - I'll put them in an album and put up a post about it.


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Nov 22 2013, 1:41pm

Post #27 of 39 (157 views)
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*bows modestly* [In reply to] Can't Post

But I must say the idea of folk tale and myth is huge, and I am just beginning to start to sort it out, especially in how it relates to Tolkien! There are many others on these boards who have really delved into the subject deeply, and I enjoy the process of synthesizing their insights with my own. Smile


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 22 2013, 5:21pm

Post #28 of 39 (158 views)
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OR for a certain Dwarf King to round the corner.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I got inspired by my own post with the desire to sit beneath a tree with a book like a certain Hobbit, waiting for Gandalf--or Desolation of Smaug--whichever comes first. Laugh

(*sits in the shady grass next to RivenDelve, opens book expectantly*)

I'll keep you company. Wink

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Nov 22 2013, 5:33pm

Post #29 of 39 (147 views)
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I was thinking the same thing grammaboodawg [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you imagine, having the creator of an entire world as your guide? Hearing the voice that created those languages speak them? Now that that scene has been set before me, I can. What a wonderful way to go to sleep every night!

I have great respect for the preparation RA puts into his performance. This interview points to even more than reading background material and writing character bios. He puts himself into the world and lives there. He goes beyond the text and looks at the writer, too. That is not just an actor at work, that is a true craftsman.

I wonder if any of Tolkien's unpublished material was made available to him?

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings



Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 22 2013, 5:42pm

Post #30 of 39 (145 views)
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Archetypes and allegory [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote


Part of the peril of writing a story based on "myth," I think (other kinds of stories perhaps being less susceptible?), is that it cannot really be confined to a static text. If we look at myth in terms of Jungian archetypes, then all of us have these ideas going on in our heads somewhere, and we've got our own interpretation of how the myths should unfold, and how we personally embrace them. So in that sense there is always change.
I suspect I might be a little biased myself. Angelic (Curse you, movie-Thorin! Look what you've done to me! Wink) But although I don't always like every choice PJ & Co. make, I do feel confident that they respect the "canon" material--even if the way they "respect it" looks different from how I would have done it. And sometimes I'm glad it looks different, because then I get the chance to ponder why it was done differently, from an artistic point of view.

Wonderful that you bring up archetypes in that context R-D, with their situational parallel in allegory. We know JRRT had a 'stated' dislike of allegory, but what he says about it makes me think of the hurdles SPJ has in front of him as well when adapting the story:
"I dislike Allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language. (And of course, the more 'life' a story has the more readily will it be susceptible of allegorical interpretations: while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly will it be acceptable just as a story.)" (JRRT, #131)
So the hurdle here for a filmmaker, and one making films of what is a modern myth - steeped now within its own allegory (ironic) - is that the more universally embraceable the characters are, and the more 'archetypal' they are, the less 'life' and depth they have. Their existence, motivations and reactions become part of the pre-existing notions associated with the 'myth' and their part in it. Yet to have them be 'real', to have versamilitude and some level of jeopardy and unpredictability (as desired in the visual mode) they have to step away to a greater or lesser degree from the archetype and the allegory. Therin lies the rub though! Because the expectations, the created archetypes imagined in the millionth exponentials - how do you make it work for that large an audience? - as JRRT writes, because there "must" be some use of the allegorical.
A perfect case in point: Film Thorin vs. Book Thorin. From a archetype in text we have a three-dimensional charcter onscreen. And as such, one of the most contested and I think misunderstood changes to the text.
Smile

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Nov 22 2013, 5:43pm)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Nov 22 2013, 6:23pm

Post #31 of 39 (139 views)
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As to waiting for a certain Dwarf king... [In reply to] Can't Post

I might be tempted to try an ambush instead. Evil Sly


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Nov 22 2013, 6:42pm

Post #32 of 39 (124 views)
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Very good point, Brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
So the hurdle here for a filmmaker, and one making films of what is a modern myth - steeped now within its own allegory (ironic) - is that the more universally embraceable the characters are, and the more 'archetypal' they are, the less 'life' and depth they have. Their existence, motivations and reactions become part of the pre-existing notions associated with the 'myth' and their part in it. Yet to have them be 'real', to have versamilitude and some level of jeopardy and unpredictability (as desired in the visual mode) they have to step away to a greater or lesser degree from the archetype and the allegory. Therin lies the rub though! Because the expectations, the created archetypes imagined in the millionth exponentials - how do you make it work for that large an audience? - as JRRT writes, because there "must" be some use of the allegorical.




I hadn't thought about how so many of our archetypes have now taken on their allegorical natures and expectations. It really takes deliberate thought and planning to be able to get distance from the archetype.


Quote
A perfect case in point: Film Thorin vs. Book Thorin. From a archetype in text we have a three-dimensional character onscreen. And as such, one of the most contested and I think misunderstood changes to the text.



Yes, and the first point contributes to why many people find Movie Thorin one-dimensional, I think. Perhaps the archetype and allegory are too strong and defined in their view...? But yet this second point brings us nicely back around to the interview with Richard Armitage! I can respect that much more, in light of the difficult nature of working through and past "mythic" expectations, his own quest to find not only what motivates Thorin as an individual, but also what motivated Tolkien as an author to portray him the way he did, and what issues and ideas Tolkien was grappling with as he was in the process of creating Thorin.


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 22 2013, 10:14pm

Post #33 of 39 (121 views)
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Quite right R-D! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
Yes, and the first point contributes to why many people find Movie Thorin one-dimensional, I think. Perhaps the archetype and allegory are too strong and defined in their view...? But yet this second point brings us nicely back around to the interview with Richard Armitage! I can respect that much more, in light of the difficult nature of working through and past "mythic" expectations, his own quest to find not only what motivates Thorin as an individual, but also what motivated Tolkien as an author to portray him the way he did, and what issues and ideas Tolkien was grappling with as he was in the process of creating Thorin.

It does bring us full-circle right back to the interview with Richard!

I'm thankful we have a dedicated bunch of people who take the time and have the drive to go below the surface and bring these characters to the screen for us. SmileCoolAngelic

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Kim
Valinor


Nov 22 2013, 10:25pm

Post #34 of 39 (118 views)
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Too late! [In reply to] Can't Post

Already ambushed! Let the hugging commence! Evil


Kim
Valinor


Nov 22 2013, 10:27pm

Post #35 of 39 (110 views)
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Very interesting conversation Brethil and R-D [In reply to] Can't Post

I really enjoyed reading both of your thoughts on this. Thanks for sharing your thoughtful responses. Smile


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 22 2013, 10:35pm

Post #36 of 39 (115 views)
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(*arriving out of breath*) Did I miss the ambush! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Already ambushed! Let the hugging commence! Evil

Shoot! Move over.

(adding: and you are MOST welcome Kim! Thanks to you for the kind words!)Angelic

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Nov 22 2013, 10:36pm)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Nov 22 2013, 11:41pm

Post #37 of 39 (109 views)
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Oh dear [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope Thorin hasn't been hugged to pieces by now... I don't care, I'll take the crumbs! Laugh


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Nov 22 2013, 11:43pm

Post #38 of 39 (96 views)
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You're most welcome! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Magpie
Immortal


Nov 22 2013, 11:51pm

Post #39 of 39 (114 views)
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I remember... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I was sitting behind Karen Wynn Fonstad at that wine and cheese get together. I had found "The Atlas of Pern" just weeks before at a thrift store and brought it with me to get her autograph. I stupidly left "The Atlas of Middle-earth" at home! Doh.

I also remember we got in trouble with the wine. :-)

I had been a dedicated follower of TORn's home page for years but hadn't joined the message boards. But I hooked up... kind of.. with you guys as you did the planning. And then I brought in some people from another board I did post on. So the two sub groups touched base while planning but not so much while socializing off hours. I was happy you all welcomed us (since we all were readers of the Home Page, if not the message boards).


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

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