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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Tolkien's 'the hobbit' (spoilers!?)

Óintment
The Shire

Nov 17 2013, 7:29pm

Post #1 of 9 (798 views)
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Tolkien's 'the hobbit' (spoilers!?) Can't Post

hello my fellow ringers,

i would like to discuss what's the point of bringing fili and kili on this quest.

1st fili and kili are heir to the throne of Erebor, which make that the only 3 heirs to the throne make their way to erebor to take back their homeland, what is rightful theirs.

2nd (spoiler) if they would all die, in this case they all 3 will. there is no rightful heir to the throne of erebor, which will pass on the crown to their relatives (dain)

3th why would they let join fill and kili, if Gimli son of gloin is older than both of them.

i know this is a book but for me it is a bit unlogical

groetjes uit nederland, Brabant

Pick up line: Are you an Ork, cause you make my sting Glow!


Na Vedui
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 8:18pm

Post #2 of 9 (440 views)
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There is an answer to your third question [In reply to] Can't Post

- which is that Gimli was in fact younger. The family-tree of Durin's folk in the Appendices to LOTR gives birth-dates as follows:
Fili year 2859 of the Third Age
Kili 2864
Gimli 2879

There's a slight complication in that "The Hobbit" [book] has Fili younger than Kili - Tolkien must have forgotten, or changed his mind, by the time he was writing LOTR.
But as far as I know, Gimli was always meant to be younger than both of them. Dwarves live long and grow up slowly, so I suppose Gloin thought Gimli was too young to go questing at the time when "The Hobbit" took place, which was a good many years before the events in LOTR.

I don't know about the other two questions - I guess you'd have to ask Thorin about that! (And Fili and Kili's mum, Thorin's sister Dis.)


MomoftheShire
Rivendell

Nov 17 2013, 10:46pm

Post #3 of 9 (291 views)
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Heirs [In reply to] Can't Post

Having had more than a few discussions over at Barliman's about this, I think I can answer your first question.

In the movie, Fili is played up as the heir to Thorin. However, Tolkein never states that in the Hobbit. He and Kili are introduced as "my sister's sons". Some say that Dwarves did not recognize heirs thru the sister of the King. Other races did, but not dwarves. SO, Dain is Thorin's heir from the beginning. I saw Phillipa say, in one of AUJ's appendices that they wanted to ensure that Thorin looked young enough to give the hope that he could produce heirs and have a long reign. AND that also means that BOTH heirs (Thorin and Dain) are at risk in BO5A.

Help?


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 17 2013, 11:26pm

Post #4 of 9 (258 views)
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It sounds logical... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that the heir would be kept out of battle for the sake of the future, but if you look back in history that isn't the way things have worked. The only time you find an heir being kept in safety is if he or she is a child. Otherwise they share the danger. That makes another sort of sense, if you think about it. Someone who is going to lead a country of a people needs to have experience and understanding - also to command respect.


Na Vedui
Rohan


Nov 18 2013, 1:06am

Post #5 of 9 (222 views)
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Another Middle-earth example [In reply to] Can't Post

is Elendil, and his sons Isildur and Anarion, who all went to battle against Sauron. Isildur survived, as it happened, but he could have been killed along with his brother and father.

And I seem to recollect sons on both sides of the English Wars of the Roses being in battles alongside their fathers, and some were killed.

So I think you are probably right, Dormouse. In a fighting society, nobody's going to think much of an heir who has been kept at home in cotton-wool, and when he inherited, he would have trouble keeping his own warriors in line, let alone facing down any outside enemies.


Elizabeth
Valinor


Nov 18 2013, 7:11am

Post #6 of 9 (168 views)
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It used to be quite common for families to serve together. [In reply to] Can't Post

No fewer than 322 sets of brothers serving in the British Army (including Commonwealth forces) were killed in WWI.

There were 37 confirmed pairs or trios of brothers assigned to the USS Arizona on December 7, 1941. Of these 77 men, 62 were killed, and 23 sets of brothers died. Both members of the ship’s only father-and-son pair, Thomas Augusta Free and his son William Thomas Free, were killed in action.

The famous incident of the Five Sullivan Brothers who were all killed when a Japanese sub sank the USS Juneau (CL-52) led to the US Navy adopting a "sole survivor" policy wherein sole surviving sons and daughters are exempt for involuntary deployment or assignment to combat areas.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 18 2013, 7:12am)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Nov 18 2013, 1:07pm

Post #7 of 9 (139 views)
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I have sometimes wondered if the "who's the heir" question [In reply to] Can't Post

was part of the reason Tolkien killed Fili and Kili off in BOFA. That way there was no controversy about who the next king would be--with no males left from the line of the eldest son of King Dain I (Thror), it seems logical that the kingship would pass to the line of Dain I's third son (Gror), whose grandson was Dain II.


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 18 2013, 3:52pm

Post #8 of 9 (114 views)
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An in-story explanation [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There's a slight complication in that "The Hobbit" [book] has Fili younger than Kili - Tolkien must have forgotten, or changed his mind, by the time he was writing LOTR.
But as far as I know, Gimli was always meant to be younger than both of them. Dwarves live long and grow up slowly, so I suppose Gloin thought Gimli was too young to go questing at the time when "The Hobbit" took place, which was a good many years before the events in LOTR.



Or we could explain the discrepency between Fili and Kili's ages by guessing that Bilbo had gotten confused about who was younger when he was writing his memoirs.

Yet another example of heirs going to war with their fathers in Middle-earth: Young Thranduil fought the forces of Sauron alongside his father Oropher, the previous Elvenking, at the end of the Second Age. Oropher was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Nov 18 2013, 4:11pm

Post #9 of 9 (107 views)
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Well, seeing as how it's Thorin that says Fili is younger... [In reply to] Can't Post

I just assume that he mixed up his nephews again. Tongue If you believe that, it means his mix-up of Fili and Kili during the stone giants scene has textual basis.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."

 
 

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