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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I hear people all over the internet keep saying Azog looks like a cartoon or an 'orc you'd expect in a pixar movie...
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Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2013, 2:18pm

Post #51 of 70 (284 views)
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Sure, they are wearing more on their bodies than the Dwarves... [In reply to] Can't Post

But it isn't anything that would severely restrict their movements, as for the most part the prosthetics appear to be pretty light and tight-fitting. You have to admit that these prosthetics are nowhere near as bulky as what the Goblins were wearing. And IIRC, the live-action Goblins STILL ended up wearing their bulky suits, they just lost their masks. From waht I remember seeing, it was the animatronic masks that were causing most of the movement issues, not so much the suits.

Plus, the decision to go with a mo-capped Azog was not because they thought he would look too stiff. They went with the CGI so they could make him stand out from the rest of the Orcs. From what I saw in the EE, it was a design-based decision, not a mechanic-based one.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 17 2013, 2:23pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 2:32pm

Post #52 of 70 (278 views)
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From what I saw on the footage, [In reply to] Can't Post

…physical exhaustion was a major issue with the Orc suits. Tongue


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2013, 2:43pm

Post #53 of 70 (281 views)
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The picture you linked to... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is from the DoS trailers, NOT from AUJ. I will admit that his CGI looks much better there. In AUJ, he just looked very fake to me, and I noticed it as soon as I saw him outside Moria. Here are some comparisons to the one you posted. I think he looks extremely unnatural in these pics.


http://atolkienistperspective.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/azog.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j03pjHJtVCA/UYHawLWJixI/AAAAAAAAAMk/AV1R7tgmyVc/s1600/azogTheDefiler1.png

http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Azog-the-Defiler.png


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2013, 2:44pm

Post #54 of 70 (290 views)
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Orc suits? [In reply to] Can't Post

Or the Goblin suits?

Anyway, I'm sure it was pretty grueling for many of the Orcs. But by the looks of it, it was pretty grueling for the Dwarves too. Though I highly doubt anyone in their right mind thinks that they should have been mo-capped CGI characters Tongue


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 17 2013, 2:52pm)


sherlock
Gondor


Nov 17 2013, 2:55pm

Post #55 of 70 (268 views)
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I hope you are right about [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog in DOS. I didn't mind him on my first viewing but I'm liking him less and less each time I watch AUJ. I watched it last night and I left the room during the parts I don't like and did other stuff while the action scenes were on. I agree that the action/fight scenes were better in LOTR.


sherlock
Gondor


Nov 17 2013, 3:01pm

Post #56 of 70 (265 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

All the LOTR movies have changes from the book. Some I like and some I don't. Boromir's character was greatly improved and fleshed out in the movies, for example. Radagast is a joke in The Hobbit and so are some of the dwarves.


sherlock
Gondor


Nov 17 2013, 3:11pm

Post #57 of 70 (257 views)
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An Orc with OCD. Funny!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 4:21pm

Post #58 of 70 (240 views)
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Those goblin suits [In reply to] Can't Post

for the Goblintown sequence seemed very restrictive compared to the dwarves' costumes/make-up, or any orc prosthetics for any of PJ's films. They had a huge torso component to make them look bent and misshapen, and very heavy, intricate full head pieces that had to accomodate all the electronics and motors that were to drive the goblin's facial expressions. Much more encumbering and restrictive than 'fat' suits and wigs and multi-piece facial prosthetics of the dwarves and most orcs, or even the full body prosthetic that Lawrence Makoare wore for Lurtz in Fellowhip (which to me is still the very best example of an orc/goblin inany of the films).


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 4:24pm

Post #59 of 70 (243 views)
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Those guys are awesome. [In reply to] Can't Post

And not just because they're "real", but also because they are great orc design, imo.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 4:45pm

Post #60 of 70 (238 views)
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Another reason i think that Gollum works where Azog doesn't [In reply to] Can't Post

is that Gollum is a one of a kind character. He's not there interacting with other "real" characters just like him. There's nothing to compare him to in the shots that he's in. Therefore, he works visually. Plus, he's acted by a genius, which is another thing entirely.

With Azog, much of the time he's there in scenes interacting with guys in prosthetics and costume that have a much more grounded reality in that they move in a way that matches their appearance, and are dirty and grotessque and bent, just like all the orcs and goblins that we're used to seeing in PJ's films. And then there's this clean, much more 'human" looking guy standing completely upright, strutting around like a professional wrestler, and it's no surprise that he looks odd or out of place in the shots that he's in. He is completely at odds with all the orcs he's interacting with, and with any orc or goblin we've ever seen in these films.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Nov 17 2013, 6:13pm

Post #61 of 70 (209 views)
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See, i don't like them that much [In reply to] Can't Post

They kinda look cheap, like someone wearing a Halloween costume.

Luckily, for me anyway, PJ said in the commentaries that he's increasingly relying on CGI orcs in DOS & TABA. Wink


Na Vedui
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 8:03pm

Post #62 of 70 (188 views)
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Glad I'm not imagining things (or in need of an optician!) [In reply to] Can't Post

And I'm sorry, because I really enjoy Bilbo and the Dwarves and loved all the character-stuff in the LOTR fights. I hope that in the next two films they slow down, and zoom in, a bit more often.


Nevrast
Bree

Nov 17 2013, 11:29pm

Post #63 of 70 (157 views)
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I think you might want to relax for your own peace of mind [In reply to] Can't Post

He's like a cartoon character in looks *and* personality, IMHO. He's a big walking cliche in many many ways.

That's my opinion. You're free to disagree.

Saying you're "sick of it" you seem much much too invested and angry about this. It's a movie. People have different opinions and it doesn't impact your life at all.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Nov 18 2013, 1:20am)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 18 2013, 12:18am

Post #64 of 70 (141 views)
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Comparison... [In reply to] Can't Post

Compare those Orcs to the Warg-rider that sniffs out the Dwarves during the Radagast chase, or the Orc that Azog sends to behead Thorin (the one that Bilbo attacks). Both of those Orcs were CGI, and to me it really showed. They just didn't look natural to me, at all. One of them had a face that looked like a damn jack-o-lantern. Unfortunately I can't find any close-up photos of any of the CGI Orcs aside from Azog. And just so no one accuses me of AUJ-bashing, I thought Yazneg and Fimbul, the two main non-CGI Orcs in AUJ, looked just as good as the Orcs from LotR. I really wish they would have stuck with the same visual aesthetic for the Orcs in The Hobbit.

Here is are a few CGI Orcs from The Hobbit trilogy -

http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/DarkCreaturesOrcs1.jpg

http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/HobbitSmaugTrailerOrcs3.jpg

Here's some Orcs from LotR.

Grishnakh -

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100109152209/lotr/images/9/95/Grishnakh.jpg

Shagrat -

http://trottine.t.r.pic.centerblog.net/bt0ohjte.jpg

Snaga -

http://images.wikia.com/lotr/images/archive/3/3f/20110102220903!Snaga.jpg

Sharku -

http://aragorn-elessar1.tripod.com/images/TTT/jedbrophy.jpg

Ugluk -

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu94/CTLN7/RJ%20ROTWK/ugluk.jpg

To me, the LotR pictures look superior.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 18 2013, 12:26am)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 18 2013, 12:20am

Post #65 of 70 (144 views)
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Not all of them... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Orc in the latest trailer, the one who is being interrogated by Thranduil, certainly looks to be an actor in prosthetics.

So I am hoping that they stick with actors in prosthetics for most of the close-ups.


vinsanity
The Shire

Nov 18 2013, 12:37am

Post #66 of 70 (125 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

what a complete insult to Richard Taylor and the guys from Weta workshop that took hours to make that make-up...

In Reply To
They kinda look cheap, like someone wearing a Halloween costume.



(This post was edited by vinsanity on Nov 18 2013, 12:41am)


Elskidor
Rohan


Nov 18 2013, 11:11am

Post #67 of 70 (94 views)
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Seriously [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is filled with heated opinions. I don't really see how attacks on costume is different than attacks on CGI. It's all a matter of opinion, and both take time and work.


Elessar
Valinor


Nov 18 2013, 1:17pm

Post #68 of 70 (93 views)
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Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought Azog and the Goblins looked pretty darn impressive in the movie but I also love how the Orcs in suits look as well. I think both in these movies have been very impressive and made things feel real.



Snowghost77
Lorien

Nov 19 2013, 4:16am

Post #69 of 70 (59 views)
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orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe the cgi heads offer a greater diversity to the features and look of the orc. With cgi you can spread the eyes out wider, make the mouths bigger with differnt slants and angles... something they just cant do, (or dont do) with prosthetics if they want to use the actor's own eyes and mouth....this just limits the looks which you can create. You can pile up makeup around the eyes and mouth, but you just cant change where the eyes and nose are in correlation to the mouth, and vise versa. By making the heads cgi you can create a much more diverse array of orc faces...moving the eyes, mouth, and nose anywhere you want on the face.
I can see why peter jackson wanted to start doing this...he ob iously wanted to create more varried and outlandish looking orcs, which I personally always secretly hoped would happen with the level of cgi today. I think the move was successful, and created better looking orcs than most of the LOTR ones. Now dont get me wrong, LOTR had some great looking orcs, but a few bordered on the bad B movie makeup look for my taste. Ugluk looked stiff and unnatural to me, and I didnt think gothmog was that great...was really hoping for the end all be all sinister bad$%s orc, but all I could think of were the goonies..I actually laughed ( still upset about that one). You cant win em all.

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Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 21 2013, 1:57pm

Post #70 of 70 (37 views)
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CGI Orcs... [In reply to] Can't Post

I know this thread is on page 6 by this point, but I will reply anyway.

The only LotR Orc I had any issue with was Gothmog. I felt he was terribly OTT. Anyway, I get that Jackson wanted to be able to make some of the Orcs more outlandish looking this time around, but I just do not think the technology is here yet to make them look believable in any way. I disagree that the Orcs in AUJ looked better than most of the LotR ones. I felt they looked like they were digitally-placed on top of their scenes, as opposed to being IN the scenes. And I felt their facial designs just looked awful. As I said in a previous comment, one of them looked like he had a jack-o-lantern for a face. They looked so video-gamey to me, and it was jarring because I was expecting the aesthetic we got in LotR. I guess this was the one area, visually anyway, that Jackson didn't feel he needed to tie in to the LotR films.

And to the "complaint" (for lack of a better term) about not having the ability to place eyes further apart, bigger mouth/jaw, etc, I don't see the big deal there. The Orcs are supposed to be corrupted versions of Elves, and so I feel they should have similar facial/bone structures. But, Peter Jackson being Peter Jackson, I shouldn't be surprised that he felt he had to go more and more OTT.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 21 2013, 2:00pm)

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