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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
noah and tolkien

book Gandalf
Rohan


Nov 14 2013, 5:39pm

Post #1 of 7 (257 views)
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noah and tolkien Can't Post

im not a religious person, but with the new darren aronovsky film of noah coming out soon its interesting to read about the flood and the long lifespans of the 'antediluvian' period humans.

of course there are parallels to numenor when you think of floods, but i always assumed that was a reference to atlantis, which of course it is aswell, but the notion that the period of time in the bible between adam and eve and noah when humans that could live up to a thousand years old reminds me of th elong lived lives of the numenoreans,

its also interesting to note that after the great flood in the bible that men started living a lot less, i think moses lived to a hundred and fifty.

this just reminded me that aragorn and the long lives of the men of the west may have been influenced by these biblical humans , and that the story of the flood may have added to the wonderful layers that make up the story of numenor and its people.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 8:33pm

Post #2 of 7 (140 views)
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Very interesting parallels B-G! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Numenor reflected JRRT's (as he terms it) Atlantean obsession, which he felt was inescapable in any mythic legendarium. It was initially written for another purpose but it seems that JRRT felt it had to be included in any history of Men. Ardamire recently (and excellently) brought up in another thread that it is rather a Tower of Babel sort of event, later in Men's development and occurring very specifically due to their errors in pride.

For my part, I tend to think of the loss of Beleriand as his 'antediluvian' event. I sort of couple this in my mind with the Dawn of Men being in the east (Eden) and being corrupted there by the symbolic serpent and his apple (Morgoth) of poisoned half truths. So that early part of Middle-earth paralleling the first tales of Men and their world.

You make an excellent point about the diminishment of life spans post the apocalyptic event of Numenor. I like the tie-in here to the Biblical tales, that's a great connection. And in the legendarium that we see their diminishment in spirit evidenced in their shorter lives - but renewed again for a time in Aragorn.

Ultimately the much longer lives that they started out with seem to have allowed room for the mischief that Sauron utilized: so close to the Immortal and yet so far. A dangerous thing for mortals maybe, that taste of life and the time to contemplate wanting more of it?

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 15 2013, 2:38pm

Post #3 of 7 (125 views)
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Middle-earth and the Biblical Flood [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien estimated that the end of the Third Age occurred about 6000 years ago, approximately the same time as the beginning of the Hebrew Calendar. Doesn't this suggest that Noah's Flood would have coincided with the end of either the Fourth or Fifth Age? Certainly some calamity should account for the changes in geography between Middle-earth and the modern world.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Nov 16 2013, 12:50am

Post #4 of 7 (107 views)
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Lots of Civilizations [In reply to] Can't Post

Such as the Greeks, the Hebrows seem to have a flood as a legend at the beginning of their time. Anyone might think that there was a common Tsunami at the dawn of written time which made it's way into a lot of legends!


Elizabeth
Valinor


Nov 16 2013, 1:20am

Post #5 of 7 (101 views)
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Could be... [In reply to] Can't Post

...any civilization that's lasted a while has suffered from at least one really major flood, and n-many generations later the tales have morphed into its mythology.








Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 16 2013, 9:28pm

Post #6 of 7 (103 views)
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If I remember correctly... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Such as the Greeks, the Hebrows seem to have a flood as a legend at the beginning of their time. Anyone might think that there was a common Tsunami at the dawn of written time which made it's way into a lot of legends!



I seem to recall a Flood story that hails from ancient Babylon that may be the basis for the story of the Biblical Flood. It features a Noah-analog who is a trader and possesses a barge that has animals on it. The flood may be a flooding of the Nile.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 16 2013, 9:32pm)


acheron
Gondor


Nov 19 2013, 1:13pm

Post #7 of 7 (96 views)
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flood myths [In reply to] Can't Post

The ancient Greeks -- and not only them -- noticed fossils of sea creatures on mountaintops and other high elevation areas. Nowadays we know all about plate tectonics and mountains rising from the sea over the eons, but back then, what was the most obvious method for sea creatures to get to the top of a mountain? Obviously a giant flood.

So along with real floods becoming legendary over the generations, the ancients could also spot physical evidence of a world-covering flood.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams

 
 

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