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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Mo-capped Manu
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arithmancer
Grey Havens


Nov 13 2013, 5:09pm

Post #26 of 43 (324 views)
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Brother, AUJ EE material *spoilers?* [In reply to] Can't Post

That;s certainly a possible idea. But my understanding of the objection to Azog is that it involves changing history. So would your suggestion. (Though I would have no problem with it personally...) I think the filmmakers would object to needing yet another character to be introduced to the audience. We'd need Thror, Thrain, Frerin, and Thorin in the Prologue, and in Azanulbizar.

The capture of Thrain would be another option, but it is clear that the filmmakers have plans for him, ones we cannot yet judge because we have not seen them, which are incompatible with your idea. We know that in the theatrical version, Thrain's fate is unknown. In the EE, the missing Dwarven Ring of Power is discussed. This suggests that Thrain's unknown fate is a plot development for later installments. This would preclude your idea as a motivation for Thorin in AUJ.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Nov 13 2013, 5:25pm

Post #27 of 43 (297 views)
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No argument from me! [In reply to] Can't Post

The filmmakers did change the history in some ways, this is a fact I have no wish to deny. What they kept, is that Azog slew Thror; and they gave him a motive not present in canon (though, one I don't find entirely inconsistent with same - what did book Azog expect would happen as a result of his very provocative canon behavior?)

But changing the story from canon in such a way that the orc chasing Thorin is Bolg, would not have achieved the specific things the filmmakers achieved, by making it Azog.

Since I personally adore the end of AUJ, I find the changes to be fine. I also generally find them ok because there really was a war with Orcs, Dwarves did not recolonize Moria, Azog really killed Thror, something is going on with Thrain that sounds like it might be plausibly similar to canon (jury is out on that one, we'ce not seen it yet) so that to my mind, some key parts of the history were presented and inform the movie's events.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 13 2013, 5:43pm

Post #28 of 43 (285 views)
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Present but not correct? [In reply to] Can't Post

For what it's worth, has already confirmed that how Gandalf gets the map/key is changed from the book, and that he will meet Thrain in DG for the first time, in DoS.

I agree that most things will come fairly acceptably in the wash, despite being thoroughly muddled up so far. but since the usual idea with film making is to simplify the plotlines, it does seem to me that PJ & co have needlessly complicated matters. And one of the reasons for this is that Tolkien's tapestry is so tightly woven...changing one thing will affect several others down the line. In other words, drop a thread and the whole thing unravels unless you are very careful!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 13 2013, 5:56pm

Post #29 of 43 (297 views)
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For me... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's good that they tried to get it right, even up until the last minute.

But it also means that a clear vision was never there in the first place. When I watch Azog on screen, I feel like I'm actually watching the indecision of the filmmakers.

I also feel nothing creative was done with his character whatsoever. There is nothing interesting to me about a villain that hulks around and makes others do his dirty work. I've simply seen it in so many things already. When I was watching for the first time, it felt like they used a "scary villain" button and just kind of slapped him in there. This wouldn't be a big problem if his role wasn't so large. I understand he really doesn't have all that much screen time, but it's enough. You can just feel him hanging over the whole movie like a bad dream.

This isn't Manu's fault though. He was instructed to act a certain way, and he did a good job.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

(This post was edited by jtarkey on Nov 13 2013, 5:58pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Nov 13 2013, 6:23pm

Post #30 of 43 (261 views)
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"needlessly" [In reply to] Can't Post

The filmmakers added a major, 3 movie subplot, that of the Necromancer. And they were always going to do this, both because it solves the "problem" of why Gandalf disappears from the book for a good part of it (he will not disappear from the films, rather, we will see what he got up to on his own), and because "Hobbit" is being made after hit LotR movies. It could be argued they should not have done this, but personally, I like this decision (and can understand why they would not want to make this project any other way, for both artistic and commercial reasons).

I think the roles of Azog and Bolg in the film, will help to tie this big addition in with the rest of the material. So I don't see either of their presences as needless (or even additional) complications, I see them as likely a solution to a complication they face, that of tying these stories together in a satisfying way.


Na Vedui
Rohan


Nov 13 2013, 7:04pm

Post #31 of 43 (266 views)
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My first reaction to Azog and co [In reply to] Can't Post

especially in the scenes where they are talking amongst themselves, was that it felt like a Western - the modern ones where they do their research and have the native Americans speaking in authentic Apache or Lakota or whatever and coached by a native speaker - the rather slow, emphatic delivery was like that. So you may be onto something with your Maori element.

And of course the chase scene and the landscape it was set in, was utterly a Western - complete with timely appearance of Elrond's Cavalry! Though I don't know what John Wayne would have made of the bunny-sled...


MatthewJer18
Rohan

Nov 13 2013, 7:09pm

Post #32 of 43 (260 views)
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I love, love love Manu's performance as Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

As others have noted, he had only a few weeks to build the character after it was decided that mo-cap would replace the initial designs. One thing I appreciate about Azog in the films is how directly they managed to translate Manu's movements and expressions; it feels like his full weight is behind every action Azog performs. He's not just a mindless orc; he's played as very prideful by Manu, which I appreciate. One of my favorite Azog moments is when he confronts Yazneg at Weathertop...Manu delivers "Better you had...paid with it" so chillingly.


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Nov 13 2013, 7:43pm

Post #33 of 43 (236 views)
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It is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(You. may have noticed?
Bomby
NEVER posts any
Dis-Couraging word.)

"The World is full of Hate
But Love is All there
Really is."




...that keep the darkness at bay...Small acts of kindness and love. -Gandalf

Thank you Bomby, for being a good example to us all! HeartSmile


droidsocket
Rivendell

Nov 13 2013, 7:49pm

Post #34 of 43 (228 views)
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I would say... [In reply to] Can't Post

That the small reward would be bringing his kingdom back to his people. I think many people want him to fail at killing Azog because both revenge and all encompassing greed are horrible things. And Thorin pays the ultimate price. Not only with his life but with his nephews as well. Plus Azog was never Thorins to kill in cannon. It was Dains.

And maybe the film makers are using Frodos story as an example. Thorin is saving The Mountain (like the shire) but not for himself. It maybe I am off base. :)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 13 2013, 9:29pm

Post #35 of 43 (204 views)
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I'd probably just leave it out. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I see why Bolg would want to kill Thorin, yes. But in your scenario, why would Thorin be at all fired up about Bolg?


I would have left that particular story beat in the distant past, along with Azog. I personally thought that Thorin coming down from the tree and getting plastered by Azog, only for Azog to order someone else to kill Thorin, and then fail, was particularly ineffective. Thorin has enough going on in these films already. All this just seems like a quick fix after deciding to make The Hobbit into a trilogy, personally.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 13 2013, 9:47pm

Post #36 of 43 (184 views)
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You're absolutely right. [In reply to] Can't Post

All this stuff that doesn't really make much sense now, might end up making sense by the end of TaBA, and that would definitely help matters. But that doen't necessarily mean that i'm ever going to like it any more than i do now.


ShireHorse
Rohan

Nov 13 2013, 10:20pm

Post #37 of 43 (170 views)
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I really don't understand [In reply to] Can't Post

why people don't understand why a) Thorin comes down from the tree and b) is immediately smacked down by Azog and then c) a minion comes to decapitate him. This is all completely in the Anglo-Saxon warrior tradition which you get both in literature and in real historic accounts of battles.

Secondly, I think that, by the time we reach even the end of the DoS, it will be seen that three films were necessary. And I'll repeat what people have said endlessly about the book: it is a case of 'much in little'. You cannot do the story justice in fewer than three films.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Nov 13 2013, 10:45pm

Post #38 of 43 (164 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

The involvement of Bilbo in saving Thorin was an addition to help create an arc for a Movie 1 of 3 (along with additions of Bilbo falling off the ledge in the mountains, deciding to leave, declaring why he after all wants to stay with the mission, and the hug). But the scene itself, including the Thorin vs Azog fight, was one they always planned to have (with Eagles saving Thorin at the last minute instead).

Yes, we could simply not have this scene. We could even, not have any Orcs chasing the dwarves at any point in the movie (just angry Goblins, or just moving on to Beorn or Mirkwood). But that is moving beyond a complaint that they should have used Bolg instead of Azog. They used Azog, because the scenes and story they envisioned, were about Azog, not about Bolg.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 13 2013, 11:12pm

Post #39 of 43 (162 views)
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Necessity of three films... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit story, by itself, would have warranted one 2.5 to 3 hour film, and with the Gandalf side-plot added in (which I am in favor of because it is canon and it happened concurrently with the story), two shorter films tops, with plenty of room for character development. We're only getting three films because they decided to invent a whole bunch of stuff that didn't happen anywhere in Tolkien's books. That's not to say that I hate all of it, especially because I haven't yet seen all of it, and I don't mind some expansion of Bard and Thranduil. But the invented stuff I have seen thus far, namely the Azog revenge sub-plot, I dislike. I also dislike the idea of tying the Azog revenge sub-plot into Gandalf's sub-plot.. I have a feeling it's going to be Azog-overload by the end of the trilogy, and IMO he is THE most annoying character that has appeared in Jackson's Tolkien films. His part in the story seems to get bigger and bigger the more we hear about it, when all I want is for his annoying ass to just go away.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 13 2013, 11:20pm)


DjU
Lorien

Nov 13 2013, 11:21pm

Post #40 of 43 (143 views)
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azog [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The involvement of Bilbo in saving Thorin was an addition to help create an arc for a Movie 1 of 3 (along with additions of Bilbo falling off the ledge in the mountains, deciding to leave, declaring why he after all wants to stay with the mission, and the hug). But the scene itself, including the Thorin vs Azog fight, was one they always planned to have (with Eagles saving Thorin at the last minute instead).


Indeed. In the Original version The Fir Tree fight would have been the Introduction to Azog. [The weathertop scene is a pickup and Azanulbizar was originally told at Beorn's, so Azog would have been explained AFTER being revealed as the orc leading the pack that had followed them after Trollshaws.]

The original fist movie there would have been a little more mystery with regards to who was following them, with the big reveal at the fir trees, where the eagles cut it short, all climaxing with the orcs chasing the dwarves as they escape in barrels, and Killi getting injured. With the last Azog showdown being moved to DoS, they introduced Azog earlier, a ramped the AUJ finale up a bit more.


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 14 2013, 6:21am

Post #41 of 43 (99 views)
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I quite liked the performance [In reply to] Can't Post

They managed to summon a good deal of menace out of Azog, and I think his contrast to the rest of the orcs is in many ways deliberate. This is a "noble", focused creature, not a wild scavenger like the rest of them. However, the cheesy dialogue is what lessens him in my eyes.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 14 2013, 7:48am

Post #42 of 43 (82 views)
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Really? (I've not got the EE yet!) [In reply to] Can't Post

That would have been far superior storytelling, IMO., leaving the audience in suspense for longer as to who is following them, and why. Instead we got a dumbed-down scriptwriting 101....






In Reply To

Indeed. In the Original version The Fir Tree fight
would have been the Introduction to Azog. [The weathertop scene is a pickup and
Azanulbizar was originally told at Beorn's, so Azog would have been explained
AFTER being revealed as the orc leading the pack that had followed them after
Trollshaws.]

The original fist movie there would have been a little more
mystery with regards to who was following them, with the big reveal at the fir
trees, where the eagles cut it short, all climaxing with the orcs chasing the
dwarves as they escape in barrels, and Killi getting injured. With the last Azog
showdown being moved to DoS, they introduced Azog earlier, a ramped the AUJ
finale up a bit more



.



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 14 2013, 7:50am

Post #43 of 43 (79 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

As much as I don't care about book-to-screen changes concerning Azog, that WOULD be a more effective way to tell the story.

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