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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
After more careful investigation and thought than I care to admit to, why I increasingly believe Gandalf may indeed exit Dol GUldur in this film (Potential Spoiler)

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 1:22am

Post #1 of 13 (951 views)
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After more careful investigation and thought than I care to admit to, why I increasingly believe Gandalf may indeed exit Dol GUldur in this film (Potential Spoiler) Can't Post

with a little help from his friend/kinspirit Radagast. . .

Just because for him NOT to escape on his own or with only Radagast and in this film is something, but far from enough when Gorka Morka Azog walks and lives and breathes and chases dwarves in the companionship of Bilbo throgh Eriador.

I have seen hopeful signs, and ominous ones, but as I carefully consider it, the hopeful ones are holding more weight.


My main point of refference? Radagast, pictures of Gandalf and Radagast on the way out of Dol Guldur proper, and very importantly, Lego sets, which while they often leave things and individuals out, are almost never all that far off in the events they depict, i.e., they generally do not introduce persons who were not present in the depicted scene, even if they leave out some who were, and they don't fabricate entire events. The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and the Lego sets generally don't either. Also, at this stage of things, we would not be seeing accidental early releases like the Mirkwood Spider set, which ended up being manufactured and shipped BEFORE the decision was made to make three movies.

The Dol Guldur sets are meant to go with this movie, and if they say Gandalf and Radagast are both present and fighting in Dol Guldur together, they very probably are. HOWEVER, we can be fairly certain that Radagast, while he comes with Gandalf TO Dol Guldur, does NOT initially enter with him. In the trailer we see him turning back, and ALL of the footage we have seen is of The Gray Wizard alone in Dol Guldur. He goes in with his hat and staff, and at some point the hat falls from him.

In photos from one of the guides, he is seen on Radagast's sled, his own staff not in the scene but with Radagast's in his hand. Also, in some of the clips from the latest Vlog, he is seen speaking to Radagast ABOUT Sauron's army.. Radagast has his staff in these scenes, but it is again the only staff present.

All of it combines to give me hope that the Wizards will, as a duo, depart Dol Guldur ere this film ends. It isn't garaunteed. It could happen differently, and if it does, if Gandalf is left there at the end of the movie, or if its the Nazgul rather than the Necromancer who overcome him etc. it will be a travesty of error, and I will be disgusted and appalled probably to the point of no longer being an advocate for this movie. Yet I have not given up hope. The evidence points to things possibly working out, if not well, than at least in a tolerable manner.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Nov 13 2013, 1:24am)


sycorax82
Rohan

Nov 13 2013, 1:29am

Post #2 of 13 (552 views)
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Peter and Philippa basically give away what happens in the commentary [In reply to] Can't Post

They say by the beginning of TABA we will see why Gandalf has a different staff in FOTR. Obviously, the only reason is if his staff is broken, and that must happen during a showdown with...someone!

Sadly, we will see Gandalf defeated and Galadriel carrying him to safety.


patrickk
Rohan

Nov 13 2013, 1:45am

Post #3 of 13 (468 views)
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PJ and PB said th DG subplot will carry over to TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

...whether that means Gandalf is incarcerated in a cliff hanger situation (there is shot of him bedhing bars) over two movies or whether he and Raddy leave and then come back with the rest (Galadriel) for a showdown in TABA we don't know; but we do know from the White Council that Galadriel said she would come (to the rescue) if needed.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Nov 13 2013, 1:56am

Post #4 of 13 (413 views)
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Perhaps it is one of Gandalf's "magical doppelgangers" that is captured... [In reply to] Can't Post

allowing him and Radagast to escape before the jig is up ;0)...



lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 13 2013, 2:01am

Post #5 of 13 (463 views)
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Yes Galadriel will save Gandalf in TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

after the orcs defeat him at the end of DOS. It wil be a moment where the audience will think "Gandalf would be dead without the help from this powerful Godess" and it will show how vulnerable Gandalf can actually be compared to what we saw in LOTR.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Nov 13 2013, 2:03am

Post #6 of 13 (409 views)
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Of wizard staffs... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am puzzled by the different amounts of staffs that seem to appear.

If Gandalf's is taken to Lorien, or put away for a rainy day by the end of the Hobbit, and he has Radagast's, as some theorize, for FoTR, he loses one at Orthanc most likely, gets another to lose in Moria, then picks up his old one which is now the White Staff, and it's shattered at Minas Tirith, only to get ANOTHER for the Grey Havens. Where do all the extras come from??

In the books he lost one at Orthanc, probably, one shattered at the Bridge, and the last seemed to survive for the rest of the narrative.

PJ seems to have more staffs than Tolkien. Maybe they borrowed a few?!

I cannot wait to see how this is tied up!


Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 7:04am

Post #7 of 13 (305 views)
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*pats lurtz gently on the cheek* [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, dearheart, whatever you say Tongue.

If you'd left the orcs bit out, this might have been accepted as a reasonable statement made in good faith. lol

In Reply To
after the orcs defeat him at the end of DOS. It wil be a moment where the audience will think "Gandalf would be dead without the help from this powerful Godess" and it will show how vulnerable Gandalf can actually be compared to what we saw in LOTR.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 7:42am

Post #8 of 13 (284 views)
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This response is both to you and my dear friend about these forums, Sycorax82 [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have a huge problem with the latter. And she doesn't say to the rescue, she says she will help. And I don't think anyone would be so obnoxious as to think the aide of Galadriel a worthless thing. DEPENDING on how they handle it, I would not even be entirely opposed to this business of her helping a wounded Gandalf, if the wounds are circustancial rather than hierarchal... i.e. if he is downed by ill chance, specific targeting, or other factors that could also have incapacitated her, but which she was not first subjected to etc. as OPPOSED to her seeming to come in, impervious to any of the dangers to which he was shown to be vulnerable, and starts doing heavy lifting which he was shown to be wholly incapable of.


There are a number of changes to these histories which I have disliked and not approved of. Yet I still love the films, and can mostly forgive the abberations. What I could not ever forgive or overlook, is if Peter and Phillipa, and I name them in particular because it is clarion of clarity that whatever happens in this sub-plot, they are the ones driving it, choose to use Gandalf as a foil to create false tension (SPOILER, he DEFINITELY escapes and continues to be a key player, cause, ya know, Fellowship!!!) and, beyond that, for NO better reason than to make Galadriel and possibly The Witch-King of Angmar look disproportionally more powerful than they actually are, by comparison.

There is simply no excuse for them re-writing the actual history of The Third Age to the point that Gandalf does not escape Dol Guldur on his own (at least mostly) and warn the Council. Fanboyism and fangirlism is not an excuse to go buck wild and mad in revisionism. Neither are social agenda or the desire for false tension. It is FINE and indeed entirely PROPER to show Galadriel as a mighty Power. It is NOT fine and NOT necessary to portray Gandalf as all but helpless against all the Dark Powers, or to erroneously and innaccurately portray him as imprisoned without hope of escape outside of the grace of Galadriel, just to make that point. As much as I am a fan of Gandalf, I would NEVER seek to aggrandize him in an interpretation by doing such extreme things as having him defeat the Balrog in front of the Fellowship in a three minute standoff and continue to lead them to Lorien, nor have him be the one to show Frodo visions in Galadriel's mirror, nor even show him driving off The Witch King before the sounding of the Rohan horns. Some things are just beyond the pail in utter impropriety.

I have not given up hope in this matter. The fact that the Dol Guldur plotline carries over could well mean only that Dol Guldur will not fall until the third film, as expected. The matter of the staff could simply mean we will not see Radagast officially and permenantly gift his staff to his fellow Wizard until the next movie. There is a lot of evidence to suggest this is the case, though none of it is absolute. I am going to hope for the best.

If Peter and Phillipa really are going to turn everything upside down and turn Gandalf into a happless victim for the aggrandizement of other characters, and then sit back smugly as though they have done a lovely thing in the process, it would be a rather disgusting matter indeed. I hope it proves not to be actualized that way,

In Reply To
...whether that means Gandalf is incarcerated in a cliff hanger situation (there is shot of him bedhing bars) over two movies or whether he and Raddy leave and then come back with the rest (Galadriel) for a showdown in TABA we don't know; but we do know from the White Council that Galadriel said she would come (to the rescue) if needed.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Nov 13 2013, 11:37am

Post #9 of 13 (194 views)
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A Little Out of Topic [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf seems to be able to use Nuclear Blast shock wave on Orcs, but when he fights individually he does not use them against orcs and trolls until we saw him once shock nuke the cave goblins...

Do you think they may portray Galadriel (and maybe as well as Gandalf and Radagast) as capable of sending people flying away with a stroke of a sword like Sauron does in the beginining of LOTR?


Defender of Nogrod
Registered User


Nov 13 2013, 11:48am

Post #10 of 13 (179 views)
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Probably not. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I can't see it happening. lol. Although it would be sick to see haha.

Yavanna: "Eru is bountiful, now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."

Aule: "Nonetheless they will have need of wood."

BOOM


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Nov 13 2013, 12:17pm

Post #11 of 13 (177 views)
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they could use LOTR book gandalf the withe reborn [In reply to] Can't Post

in wich he is taken naked to lorien and there he receives a new staff and clothing. but here only receiving a staff and resting

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 13 2013, 7:11pm

Post #12 of 13 (87 views)
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Actual history of the Third Age? [In reply to] Can't Post

You do know Tolkien made all this stuff up, right? ;)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 7:18pm

Post #13 of 13 (84 views)
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Or soooo you THINK!!! lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink All right, back to the main topic.

In Reply To
You do know Tolkien made all this stuff up, right? ;)


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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